Goth Like Me... well written article

tat2jay · Post by **tat2jay** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:30 am

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/Story.asp?ID=4856

well written article from a balanced view point

Sir Diddimus · Post by **Sir Diddimus** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:12 pm

Yes, very well written.....

Silent Huntress · Post by **Silent Huntress** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:27 pm

Extremely well written article. And quite frankly, I can identify with this young man. Unfortunately, society places too much emphasis on conforming to "their" standards (whoever "they" are). I've been asked not to wear so much black to work because it makes me look intimidating. And now, Knox County is starting to look at uniforms for students. I am adamantly opposed to uniforms of any kind. We don't need to squash individuality and creativity, we need to encourage it!

rec|use · Post by **rec|use** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:05 pm

they lost me at charlie h christ

[sarcasm] how fucking cryptic [/sarcasm]

Mother Mo · Post by **Mother Mo** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:45 pm

Sounds like a very nice young man once again getting the shaft from folks who don't bother to even try to understand him. I hope it works out for him.

Spam · Post by **Spam** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:50 am

Frankly I understand where the adminstration is coming from. He is going so agianst the established "norm" that it has become distracting for some students, and that is a problem. This is High School there are standards that muszt be adhered to so that things run smoothly. That is why I am for uniforms, I don't see a problem with everyone wearing the same thing, people bitch about personal style and freedom and the like but this is school, you are there to learn not for a fashion show or whatever.

ophelia · Post by **ophelia** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:07 am

Spam wrote:Frankly I understand where the adminstration is coming from. He is going so agianst the established "norm" that it has become distracting for some students, and that is a problem. This is High School there are standards that muszt be adhered to so that things run smoothly. That is why I am for uniforms, I don't see a problem with everyone wearing the same thing, people bitch about personal style and freedom and the like but this is school, you are there to learn not for a fashion show or whatever.

Agreed.

QueenOfTheFlock · Post by **QueenOfTheFlock** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:53 am

ophelia wrote:
Spam wrote:Frankly I understand where the adminstration is coming from. He is going so agianst the established "norm" that it has become distracting for some students, and that is a problem. This is High School there are standards that muszt be adhered to so that things run smoothly. That is why I am for uniforms, I don't see a problem with everyone wearing the same thing, people bitch about personal style and freedom and the like but this is school, you are there to learn not for a fashion show or whatever.

Agreed.

I agree too but my reasons are all personal in that, especially in middle school, money was extremely tight in my household so with a lot of the stuff I wore then, I ended up catching hell from classmates. Those were some of the worst years. Not saying wearing a uniform would have made it all better but at least it would have been one less thing for them to pick on a person about.

Ray+Wendy · Post by **Ray+Wendy** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:46 am

Spam wrote:Frankly I understand where the adminstration is coming from. He is going so agianst the established "norm" that it has become distracting for some students, and that is a problem. This is High School there are standards that muszt be adhered to so that things run smoothly. That is why I am for uniforms, I don't see a problem with everyone wearing the same thing, people bitch about personal style and freedom and the like but this is school, you are there to learn not for a fashion show or whatever.

I so strongly dissagree with you.

The purpose of uniforms is not to make a school run "smoothly" as the common myth infers. They are actually ( I kid you not, a Nashville school board member said this ) a method to prepare students to be good followers of a business society. Thank goodness one person had the balls to stand up to them and challenge that students need to be unique and creative leaders, not un-innovative slaves.

Here's a news flash for all uniform freaks. What you wear doesn't change who you are. People will find other reasons to hate. I know this from experience.
I can not believe anyone would support uniforms here.

Midnight_Scarlet_Angel · Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:21 pm

As far as the uniforms-as-equalizers line goes ...... it's bull.
"Status" and "in crowd" moves on to accesories. the "right" shoes and expensive earrings, YET when someone is different in a "negative" way (us if you will) we get hounded.
Female friend in OR, busted for wearing only one earring and dog collar.
Son of older friend in Karns, expelled for refused to re-dye his blue hair.

double standard shit. My opinion is that school uni's do nothing for what they are purported to solve. The problems move over to other areas and only the people wanting to be different, the non-conformists get punished.

Because what's better for conformism-obsessed preps?
School uni's.

this is my personal opinion, if you wish to add yours do so, but don't try to tell me I'm wrong. It's an opinion, and you won't change my mind anyway.

ophelia · Post by **ophelia** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:04 pm

First of all, why can't you believe anyone would support uniforms here?

Secondly, it's great to have an opinion. But I think declaring "you won't change my mind anyway" is really unproductive. What good is sharing opinions if you can't learn from different ideas and theories, and be open minded to growing intellectually?

That said, this is why I think uniforms could be a good idea:

1. As Spam pointed out, school is not a fashion show. You are there to learn. Period. Not express your "goth" creativity or your "preppie" popularity.

2. How in the world would wearing a uniform damage these kids' self-expression? No one is proposing that they wear the uniforms 24 hours a day, only during school hours. Kids have tons of free time in this country (too much if you ask me- not having year round school is what keeps our educational status behind most of the economically flourishing countries in the world) and they can easily express themselves while hanging out with friends after school, socializing on weekends, etc. Ray/Wendy claimed, "What you wear doesn't make you who you are." I agree completely. So why have a problem with the uniforms? If a person is truly unique and creative, a piece of clothing will not destroy or even stifle it. There are more ways for kids to express themselves than through their hair color or their clothes. And yes, that is a lesson they should learn early. In the real world they will be expected to prove themselves through education, technical training, and ingenuity, not by their spiked collars and purple hair.

3. There are many other negative factors that a school uniform could help remedy. I think that we have a serious problem in this country with female self-image, especially for adolescent girls. The numbers of eating disorders and unwanted pregnancies right now among high school girls is staggering. Unfortunately, our media throws constant imagery to our kids, of what is cool, what is sexy, what will gain you popularity. I saw a girl at the video store the other day who couldn't have been more than 12, and I could see her entire midriff, and the bottom edge of her ass hanging out of her denim miniskirt. She was with her friends, who were about the same age and similarly dressed. Why are our girls dressing like this? Why are schools having a problem, not only with the "freaks" mentioned in this thread, but with young girls coming to school dressed inappropriately? Sure, we can say Blame the Parents, but I think there is more to it than that. Many families have two working parents who cannot supervise the every move of their kids, and trust the educational system to fill in where they cannot. It sucks, but with our present economy, we have to fall back on the schools to help out our parents.

4. OF COURSE we cannot keep kids from making fun of each other, of wearing cool jewelry, or coming up with ways to form social cliques. That's only a very small and unimportant way to measure this problem. We can remove gang-oriented clothing (another teacher was shot and killed the other day), sexual attire on young girls, and the general distraction that fashion may induce in a classroom.

These kids have PLENTY of time in their lives to figure out who they are and what "image" they want to portray. But our kids are moving away from the fundamental reason they are in school: to learn. Again, check out how well our kids are doing compared to kids in other countries, most of Western Europe, in fact. Our society is saturated with commercial media, with what you should look like and how to fit in or stand out or blah blah blah. WE NEED TO TEACH OUR KIDS THAT IT'S WHAT'S INSIDE THEM THAT MATTERS. They do not need a certain fashion to define their creativity. I even find it silly how many ADULTS on this board think they need to look a certain way to fit into the goth genre. We have al been raised with the American ideal: individuality at any cost. It's not working. Our kids have poor social skills, are falling behind in their education, and are lost in a world of media pressure.

Give them a break. Give them a uniform. Anything that might take the pressure off our kids in regards to how they look, and accentuate the development of who they are, is fine by me.

And that's my rant.

Mother Mo · Post by **Mother Mo** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:40 pm

It's not about fashion or academics, it's about tolerance. As the mother of 2 school aged children, I know exactly how incredibly intolerant most faculty & students are in public schools. When my kids wear black, their religious beliefs are questioned & they are harassed by their peers. Most of the other kids fear them because they don't understand them. I think more kids should be allowed to dress & present themselves in their own individual style rather than as simply another representative of the herd. The only way to help the closed-minded masses understand & accept goths or any other divergent group is to allow them to be exposed to the phenomenon in a positive, nonthreatening way so that they can see first hand that underneath it all, we're all the same, & it's not necessary to dress identically to prove that.

Humans are often afraid of what we don't understand. That doesn't mean that we should change the misunderstood thing into something else we're more comfortable with, but that we should expend some effort & energy in the attempt to better understand our own defeciency. Teaching children to follow rules & be cooperative is one thing, but teaching them not to vary from one another is quite another, & I fear that would be a secondary message of any uniform policy.

Also, both my kids said it's stupid, so that's straight from the horse's mouth.

ophelia · Post by **ophelia** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:28 pm

Mother Mo wrote:It's not about fashion or academics, it's about tolerance. As the mother of 2 school aged children, I know exactly how incredibly intolerant most faculty & students are in public schools. When my kids wear black, their religious beliefs are questioned & they are harassed by their peers. Most of the other kids fear them because they don't understand them. I think more kids should be allowed to dress & present themselves in their own individual style rather than as simply another representative of the herd. The only way to help the closed-minded masses understand & accept goths or any other divergent group is to allow them to be exposed to the phenomenon in a positive, nonthreatening way so that they can see first hand that underneath it all, we're all the same, & it's not necessary to dress identically to prove that.

Humans are often afraid of what we don't understand. That doesn't mean that we should change the misunderstood thing into something else we're more comfortable with, but that we should expend some effort & energy in the attempt to better understand our own defeciency. Teaching children to follow rules & be cooperative is one thing, but teaching them not to vary from one another is quite another, & I fear that would be a secondary message of any uniform policy.

Also, both my kids said it's stupid, so that's straight from the horse's mouth.

I love ya, Mo, and I see some of your points, but the issue is not that "Goths" need to be understood. Children are students FOREMOST, and then "Goths" or whatever. The academic system is not set up to be conducive to the exploration of subculture genres. It is about the academics. You cannot substitute tolerance for education. Fashion expression, again, has nothing to do with a child getting a quality education, or at least it shouldn't.

If kids are being harassed and called names and etcetera, why do they continue to wear something that makes their lives more difficult? These kids are CHOOSING to be ostracized. Most kids (myself included in high school) that dress that way are doing so for shock value. Honestly, they get attention, and they are rebelling against the status quo of fashion. Children should be expressing themselves through art, through writing, through learning skills that they can apply to a productive future. Or through academic achievement, which is why they are there in the first place. Why has everyone forgotten that school is meant to be a learning tool, not a lab experiment to open people's minds and spread tolerance towards fashion trends? If you choose to dress like something out of a horror movie, you ARE disturbing the learning environment. The same thing would apply to some kid coming to school in a toga, or naked, or in a clownsuit. Yeah, it might be their "creative expression" ("Hey, you don't respect me because I'm a clown!"), but it would disrupt the learning environment for the other students. [This goes for 12 year olds dressed like hookers, too]

Uniforms are not intolerant. School is meant to prepare and train young people to be successful in the real world. In the real world, most businesses require a dress code. For example, police officers wear uniforms. So do nurses, electricians, and even business professionals wear a uniform of sorts. Are their personal rights and freedoms of expression being squashed? Please. Again, kids have tons of free time to express themselves however they wish. Public school is a government institution, not a love-in.

In the real world, no one will make concessions for you. You can dress however you want, but understand you will not be accepted by the general public. For those of you who actually have professional jobs, I'm sure you don't dress like you are going to the club. And for those of you that do, I'm sure you understand that you are working within an exceptional professional environment.

Moreover, what kind of lesson do we teach our children when we say, "Express yourself however you want to regardless of the repercussions"? Because once in the real world, those repercussions may keep them from achieving a sustainable income and economic security. It may suck, but that's just how it is folks. High school is to prepare you for the real world, and no employer in the real world is going to make allowances for your abnormal fashion sense.

Children should be able to express themselves, but not to the detriment of the education of other children.

(And no, not all of this is directed at Mo's post, I just got on a roll)

Mother Mo · Post by **Mother Mo** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:59 pm

I think there's room for both tolerance & academics, but I'm hoplessly optimistic & tend to set high standards for others, despite repeated disappointments.

Plus, I'm not looking for tolerance towards fashion, as much as I look for tolerance of one's fellow humans. On the grander scale, this might help our country's issues within the world community. (Yup, there's that unrealistic optimism again.)

It's quite a leap from wearing a questionable color, but being well covered & modest, to being naked or in a toga, I believe. I would never allow my children to go to school violating any decency standards, but policing color is just too far & rather silly, IMO.

Guess we should just agree to disagree on this one. :-)

Russo · Post by **Russo** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:08 pm

Okay, as someone who wore a uniform from pre-school through the 12th grade, I think I should throw my two cents into this.

Uniforms, in my opinion, are useless. They don't make schools safer, kids still pick on each other, and there is still disruption in the classroom.

Principals say school uniforms will cut down on gang violence and incidents of kids bringing weapons to school. Wrong. The kids I went to school with still showed their gang affiliations through patches on their backpacks, or sneaking colored bandannas into their pockets, or even wearing a certain type of shoelaces. And there was still violence. It may be hard to fit a glock in your khakis, but it sure as hell didn't stop one student from bringing an ice pick to school and stabbing another kid.

Another point is that it cuts down on the teasing poor kids get because they can't afford the latest fashions. Well ya know what? Even in a uniform school, ff you don't have the coolest pair of Aeropostale khakis or the newest Louis Vuitton handbag, you're gonna get shit from the kids that do. Until the school board tells every person in school the *exact* brand of pants to buy or the *exact* style shoes to wear, there is still going to be harrassment. And even then, as Midnight_Scarlet_Angel pointed out, it'll move to accessories and hairstyles.

And what's this about goth kids being distracting? If some snot-nosed brat is can't concentrate on their school work because someone painted their nails black, maybe they need to look into Ritalin. When I went to a non-uniform for a year, I never had any problems with others being distracted by my look, even when I wore 6 inch liberty spikes. We just went to class, and did our work. However, in the next school I attended, which had a dress code, the teacher spent the first 15 minutes of class looking everybody over to make sure our uniforms were correct. It got really irritating to sit in class and hear, "And that's why Shakespeare... Paul! Tuck in your shirt! Ashley, your skirt is too short. Where was I?"

There are very few good things I can see about enforcing a uniform policy. Whats the point in even having a dress code if it doesn't do anything?

Mercurygriffin · Post by **Mercurygriffin** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:18 pm

Let people look the way they want to look. Remember how great it felt to pick out YOUR clothes for the first time? Felt good to wear what you wanted to wear didn't it? For me it was one of the few comforts I had. Lots of thrift store recreations. Lots of Customizations. I'm all for have a set of rules on Grades, Isubordination, Fighting, Attendance. I would like to see more after school programs that the kids pick out. This way they can meet and be around others of their chossen ideology. I think that we should promote Debate and being oneself. And keep score.

" You may wear nice clothes but I'm smarter and you you hate that".

4X541N7 · Post by **4X541N7** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:31 pm

I think that everyone has missed the point of the school uniform...Except Ray+Wendy, who dismissed it...

The purpose of the school uniform is to get kids use to the idea, that they will have to conform in the job market...The point of the school system is to prepare kids for their future...& that future is, more times than not...A career...& I fully support the idea of a school uniform...

You all seem to think that the school uniform is designed to stop violence, intolerence, & to get kids to be accepting...That's a goal...But not the point...If it where, it would fail...& therefore, we wouldn't be talking about it...

How many of you 'Goth-Out' to work?...Probably not many, huh?...Do you get pist if you have to wear a suit, or dress to a business meeting, or job interveiw?...Probably not...Why?...Because you have to...That's the way the world works...Sure, I would like to dress how I feel 24/7...But guess what?...It's not happening...

Side Note: This post brought to you by a kid, with a mohawk...His septum & lip pierced...Tattoos on his forearms...& is currently wearing black JNCOs & a Night of the Living Dead T-Shirt...So don't think that I 'conform'...I just support...

ophelia · Post by **ophelia** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:49 pm

4X541N7 wrote:I think that everyone has missed the point of the school uniform...Except Ray+Wendy, who dismissed it...

The purpose of the school uniform is to get kids use to the idea, that they will have to conform in the job market...The point of the school system is to prepare kids for their future...& that future is, more times than not...A career...& I fully support the idea of a school uniform...

You all seem to think that the school uniform is designed to stop violence, intolerence, & to get kids to be accepting...That's a goal...But not the point...If it where, it would fail...& therefore, we wouldn't be talking about it...

How many of you 'Goth-Out' to work?...Probably not many, huh?...Do you get pist if you have to wear a suit, or dress to a business meeting, or job interveiw?...Probably not...Why?...Because you have to...That's the way the world works...Sure, I would like to dress how I feel 24/7...But guess what?...It's not happening...

Side Note: This post brought to you by a kid, with a mohawk...His septum & lip pierced...Tattoos on his forearms...& is currently wearing black JNCOs & a Night of the Living Dead T-Shirt...So don't think that I 'conform'...I just support...

Not all of us missed it. I said most of that in my second post.

And thanks for posting... its good to hear from another voice of blatant realism.

4X541N7 · Post by **4X541N7** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:03 pm

ophelia wrote:
And thanks for posting... its good to hear from another voice of blatant realism.

'Realism' is a word lost in the 'Goth' venacular...

Mother Mo · Post by **Mother Mo** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:14 pm

Guess I'll just stay out of touch with that reality then. It doesn't suit me & mine.

Ya know, in Europe there are professionals who have facial piercings, strangely colored hair, & unique wardrobe choices who are accepted by their employers & the general public. As a former professional with discrete tattoos & an almost all black wardrobe, I look forward to the day when my own country puts intelligence & skill before fashion & conformity. Yeah, I know... I'm in for a helluva wait. That's okay, it's worth waiting for.