Be prepared

Nexxus23 · Post by **Nexxus23** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 10:23 pm

Just for the record, I'm not anti-semitic. And it doesn't matter who believes or disbelieves that statement. My opinion on Israel has nothing to do with Judaism and everything to do with Israel. There is a difference.

Nexxus23 · Post by **Nexxus23** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 10:30 pm

iblis wrote:i can't deny that. never has there been a worse buzz kill than a fucking nazi.

really what i should have said was, "is it any less safe to be jewish here, than it is to be anything other than <pick your flavor of> xtian?"

i'm not saying the jewish haven't been through great atrocities; that would be rather stupid. i'm just saying that the playground is dangerous for anyone who isn't either captain whitebread, or his uber-conservative wife. hell, it's been my experience that it can be dangerous for it to be rumored that you're not one with the xtian flock.

for this reason, i just don't think that there ever will be a "safe place" to be jewish. or agnostic. or pagan. or whatever. the closest you'll ever come would be either your friends and/or your family. and that's only if you're lucky enough to have good friends and/or family.

but i suppose that if one felt that it were possible, it could easily be thought as worth fighting for.

Exactly.

mafiaman · Post by **mafiaman** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 11:28 pm

LadyIvanna wrote: Oh well....this will be my last post on this thread as I refuse to engage in flaming.
I had originally planned to do a bit more research to give an educated responce to your post; however, I have changed my mind. There is no point. No matter what proof I deliver, your hatred will not allow you to accept it.

How do you know if you do not try?
Is it more important to claim that you are above saying and defending what you believe in? Is your side of this dialogue so unimportant that you are willing to just stop?

Don't quit yet, this is where the meat of history lies.
Please.

mafiaman · Post by **mafiaman** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 11:33 pm

Nexxus23 wrote:Just for the record, I'm not anti-semitic. And it doesn't matter who believes or disbelieves that statement. My opinion on Israel has nothing to do with Judaism and everything to do with Israel. There is a difference.

OK, now restate your opinion in a way that doesn't seem flamey. You dislike Israel. Demonstrate why Israel deserves your disregard as a nation. Site events with times and dates and methods for finding the proof. Link each one to a News article.

You have stated your opinion, now prove its worth as an informed opinion.

Please.

creapyrob · Post by **creapyrob** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 11:34 pm

mafiaman wrote:
LadyIvanna wrote: Oh well....this will be my last post on this thread as I refuse to engage in flaming.
I had originally planned to do a bit more research to give an educated responce to your post; however, I have changed my mind. There is no point. No matter what proof I deliver, your hatred will not allow you to accept it.

How do you know if you do not try?
Is it more important to claim that you are above saying and defending what you believe in? Is your side of this dialogue so unimportant that you are willing to just stop?

Don't quit yet, this is where the meat of history lies.
Please.

I have been really really impressed with this topic. Tha last discussion we had about this didn't go so well. Here we are at 90+ messages and no locked topic. Yes there have been some hurt feeling but so is the nature of a real discussion.

I really expected to come back and have the topic locked.

I'm glad we can have an informed and resonable discussion about serious topics.

EvilVegan · Post by **EvilVegan** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 11:56 pm

mafiaman wrote:Don't quit yet, this is where the meat of history lies.
Please.

Where's the history of meat though?!!?!?

Sorry, it was too punny.

Ignore my tangentialness

jenna · Post by **jenna** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:00 am

te="Nexxus23"]Just for the record, I'm not anti-semitic. And it doesn't matter who believes or disbelieves that statement. My opinion on Israel has nothing to do with Judaism and everything to do with Israel. There is a difference.[/quote]

Sheesh. Turn away from my computer for a day or so, and well......
There is much in this thread that i would like to respond to, however i am taking care of this one first, because although i don't know either of the 2 of you incredibly well, in conversations i have had with both of you, the both of you have gained my respect, so i don't wanna see this blowing up any bigger than it already has.
First of all, to LadyIvanna, being anti or pro Israel has nothing to do with being anti or pro Semetic. Actually, there are alot of the more extremely ultra conservative Orthodox Jews themselves that are anti-Israel. They think that Israel is wrong and should be done away with as it was basically put there by the United States and therefore is a secular state rather than being the Holy Land, and therefore goes against G_d. Also, they argue that the Temple still has not been re-built and that without the Temple, there can be no Holy Land. So, by assuming automatically that everyone who is anti-Israel is also anti-Semetic, you are calliing some of the people that are the most stead-fastly involved in the Jewish culture and religion anti-Semetic. That doesn't make much sense to me.
Secondly, to Nexxus23,if you aren't anti-Semetic, then try and get your point across on a less flame-like manner. i don't think that you are as i have run across those types before and someone trully anti-Semetic would have been much worse. However, you were getting carried away in your critism. So, explain why you feel the way you do without hurling any insults or accusing anyone of whining, and you will get much further in getting your point accross and maybe even actually sway some opinions your way. Thus far, although some of your statements were hitting a bit below the belt i haven't been offended, and i still like ya too. i actually enjoy having disagreements with intelligent people. Keeps me thinking and growing as a person. So, keep it up.

jenna · Post by **jenna** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:20 am

LadyIvanna wrote:
Sorry, I have to disagree again. If the US was involved in the mid-east because of greed, they would STOP backing Israel. It is the arab nations that have the oil supply, not Israel. On a side note, don't have facts to back up the following statement, but I had heard that the US gets only 7% of our oil from Iraq. Has anyone else heard this or have facts on it?

i'm gonna disagree with your disagreeing. You are right that Israel does not control the oil. However, that does not mean that the oil is not a motivating factor in the US staying allied with Israel. If Israel got pissed at the United States as well, it would make and actions taken in the region by the US all the more difficult.
i really don't think that the US government really gives a shit one way or another about the plight of the Jewish people. After all, the whole reason that the US stepped in and assisted with the formation of Israel was not some great and wonderful empathy for the Zionist cause. It was the fact that the US government didn't want all the Jews immigrating to here, as they felt that they already had their share from the refugees from the Russian pogroms. It was a way to get them out of the way and to stay away, not a desire to make the world a better place.

mafiaman · Post by **mafiaman** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:30 am

EvilVegan wrote:
mafiaman wrote:Don't quit yet, this is where the meat of history lies.
Please.

Where's the history of meat though?!!?!?

Sorry, it was too punny.

We were waiting for you to start that thread in the Dumpster. Thank you for volunteering to write it for us! Make it something rare or at the very least well done......

I can't wait to see it.

jenna · Post by **jenna** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 1:10 am

Nexxus23 wrote:
Um... Israel didn't even exist until 1948, before then it was Palestine, where Palestinians lived and worked and raised children... and it's not just the Jewish "homeland," but the Muslims' and Christians', too. They all need to learn to share... apparently that lesson didn't get through to them in Kindergarten.

Which is why although i am pro-Israel, i am against the US getting involved. You are correct as far as the past hundred of years or so goes. However, that is not how the mind-set of the region goes. The conflict there goes back thousands of years, and what belonged to who back then is just as important, if not more so to those involved than what has happened in the past hundred or so years.

Nexxus23 wrote:There's always New York City and Miami... (it's a joke, laugh a little, people...) Actually, it is unbelievably safe to be Jewish in the North (definetly safer than living in Israel now), there are Jewish communities all over New York who don't have problems with the neighboring Christians, or whoever else is whatever religion. Tolerance actually abounds up there. (one of the many reasons I get homesick...)

lol True that. i love Miami aside from all the damn pastel colored buildings. New York is just to cold for my taste, regardless of all that it has going as far as cultural diversity. However, as awesome as those places are for having good strong Jewish communities, the option of going there only exists for people already in the United States. US immagration policy bites. During the Holocaust, Jewish refugees were not allowed. In fact, in the instance of the St. Louis cruise ship, Jews who had passports and emmigration to the US cleared were turned away at the port of Miami and sent back to Europe. So, as many things as this country has going for it, it definately is NOT a safe haven if anything like that were to happen again. If anything the US has gotten tighter on immagrations since that time.

Nexxus23 wrote:OK, no need to get uppity. It's everyone's "Holy Land"... well, except mine. And... the Muslims are G_d's chosen people. So are the Christians. Hey, come to think of it, isn't every major religion G_d's chosen people? Heh... how ironic... You really can't use that argument in a logical discussion because it isn't logical. Sorry.

I don't mean to get, well, mean... but your arguement don't hold no water. No offense. I still like ya, Jenna...

It is the Holy Land for all of the big 3. However, all of the big 3 originate from Judaism. It belonged to the Jews first.
i know with the whole Holy Land arguement, i'm not being logical, but with that point, we are getting off into religious beliefs, which very rarely are logical. Another complexity of the mid-east. You get politics (which to most revolves around logic and such)
and religion (which to most is more of a matter of the heart) both going all at the same time. So, it just makes for a big old mess.
As said in previous post, i still like ya too. Wanna meet for bagels sometime? lol

jenna · Post by **jenna** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 1:32 am

LadyIvanna wrote:
iblis wrote:
jenna wrote:There needs to be a place where it is safe to be Jewish.

is it not safe to be jewish in the states?

correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought there was some kind of "freedom of religion" law here.

I think she was referring more to a country of their own. It is an impossibility for all of the Jews of the middle east(or any other country they are not welcom in) to take up residence in the US.

Exactly!!!!!! i couldn't have said it better myself.

Aside from that being my original point, although there are worse places, there is anti-Semetism in the US. i've had a boyfriend break up with me when he found out i was Jewish. i've been called a Jesus killer. i've had a cousin beat up by skin-heads. So, no it's not entirely safe to be Jewish in the US. But, same could be said for any minority fringe or counter-culture group. Goths included.

pryjmaty · Post by **pryjmaty** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:46 am

OK, Nexxus & I pm-ed each other & understand what each other was trying to say. It's all good.

Before I begin my research on the creation of Israel as a state, a person must understand(as was previously stated) this will not be logical. It is ALL religious in origin. A person must believe what the Bible says. I, personally, do not; however, I am quite knowledgeable on the Bible and therefore understand why the Jews have staked a claim to Israel. It is ALL biblically based. So...if a person adamantly does not believe the bible, it will seem as nothing more than bull-shit.

>>LadyIvanna goes to drag bible off the shelf and remove a foot of dust to begin a bit of research. Reminds herself to go to the library to get a copy of the Koran.

littlepockit · Post by **littlepockit** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 11:22 am

jenna wrote:It is the Holy Land for all of the big 3. However, all of the big 3 originate from Judaism. It belonged to the Jews first.

ok, i know i am late with this, but i feel that i could add some input here.

historically and chronologically this is how the "holy land" and the big three come about.

ahem...

Hebrews in Israel 1300 BCE (before common era)
Isreal conquers Canaan 1200 BCE
Persecution of Jews in Europe 1200 CE (common era)
Jews flee to US for safety 1800 CE
Jews begin to return to Palestine 1882 CE
State of Israel 1948 CE

Christians as a seperate belief system 313 CE
Christian Crusades against Islam 1100 CE
Reformation 1600 CE

Muhammad's call from Allah 610 CE
The Hijah 622 CE
Rise of modern Islamic movement 1900 CE
Formation of Muslim States 1950 CE

so, Judaism is the oldest of the three. and each did in fact branch of Judaism. Muhammud did state that Allah and "Abraham's God" are one in the same.

just thoguht i would interflect.

kimmie

littlepockit · Post by **littlepockit** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 11:28 am

i can back up my facts by the way.

Ethics of World Religons written by Hunt Crotty and Crotty.
Published 1991 by Greenhaven Press.

kimmie

pryjmaty · Post by **pryjmaty** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 11:31 am

Exactly. Ishmael was Abraham's son through a concubine. Isaac was Abraham's son through Sarah, Abraham's wife and half-sister. Eventhough Ishmael was first born, he was not legal heir to all that the Almighty had promised Abraham. Isaac and his decendents(the Jews) were the heirs. The land of Israel is the land that was promised by the creator to Abraham. Thus begins the holy war between the muslims(Ishmaelites) and the jews. The land is holy to the christians only by virtue that Jesus lived and died there, whom is the basis for the entire christian faith.

Celestial Dung · Post by **Celestial Dung** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:13 pm

I thought Canaanites inhabited the region first historically...

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2938/histcult.html

So if you can find some modern day Canaanites are they in for a land deal?

Ok the reason I prefaced my arguments with a peacenik warning is because I believe in all out honesty in debate. If you have a bias toward a belief, present it first. No point in pretending to present pure reason when you don't.

Domination to me means control. control of people or physicalities. If a nation wages war to control trade, land, goods then in my eyes they still want domination.

littlepockit · Post by **littlepockit** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:22 pm

they did, there were actually a few other nomadic tribes and such in the area, but they were all eradicated by the romans or philistines, i do believe.

kimmie

mafiaman · Post by **mafiaman** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:11 pm

NOW THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT! [/i]

mafiaman · Post by **mafiaman** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:23 pm

Celestial Dung wrote:So if you can find some modern day Canaanites are they in for a land deal?

Only if they are Abel.....
Sorry. Had to....

Celestial Dung wrote:Ok the reason I prefaced my arguments with a peacenik warning is because I believe in all out honesty in debate. If you have a bias toward a belief, present it first. No point in pretending to present pure reason when you don't.

True. I just disagree with you feeling you have to say that you are biased. The arguement will demonstrate that bias through your use of words and the ideas that you present. A bias isn't wrong or right, it just is. Being biased towards a specific viewpoint does not invalidate that viewpoint or the beliefs and evidence which support it. I kinda think it is just a nonissue. I'm silly that way.

Celestial Dung wrote:Domination to me means control. control of people or physicalities. If a nation wages war to control trade, land, goods then in my eyes they still want domination.

OK, I can understand that. Now let me play Devil's Advocate for a second.
It can be said that you dominate the dance floor when you are out, just by the steadfast nature of your presence there. Does this mean that you control the rest of the dancers there?
I would argue that domination does not necessarily imply control when speaking of nations. The USA dominates the global economy, but we by no means control it.

jenna · Post by **jenna** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 5:50 pm

Celestial Dung wrote:I thought Canaanites inhabited the region first historically...

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2938/histcult.html

So if you can find some modern day Canaanites are they in for a land deal?

lol. Yes. If you can find some Canaanites or any of the other old tribes of the region, then i would agree that they would have a legit. "dibs" on the area over the Jews. However, to the best of my knowledge they all either got their butts kicked or got assimilated into the dominant culture centuries ago. As far as i know, the Jews are the only culture in modern exhistance with claims to the region dating that far back.
Trying to be logical and fair about that. On the other hand, G_d did say that the Jews are his chosen people and that the Holy Land is THEIR land. So, Christians, Muslims, ancient destroyed civilizations, or anyone else that wants to jump in there and get a peice of the action will ultimately loose and therefore are just wasting their time as G_d will be against them..
But, that's just the way things have been explained to me. G_d has never spoken to me directly on the subject so i can't know for 100% sure. Therefore, i'm willing to concede that any Canaanites still in existance have a right to at least try and lay a claim to the land as it was originally their's and see what happens.