Be prepared

[jenna]

I agree and disagree with this. I agree that Americans cannot understand the cultural mindset of the middleeast; however, I disagree about the US staying out of it. USA is one of the "superpowers" of the world. I believe that if it had not been for the backing of the US of Israel, Israel would have never even become a state.

Damn. You found the hole in my logic. Was hoping that noone would think of that point. lol
i just have a problem with the whole "superpower" thing. Seems to me that as far as the US is concerned anyway "superpower" is just another way of saying big fat bully. If the United States became involved in conflicts based on moral or ethical principles more would have been done in Bosnia, and Something done in Tibet. The reasons for the US getting involved in the mid east come down to greed, oil, and money. Not concern over the plight of Jewish people. If the US actually took the time in planning its interventions in the region to come up with something taking into concern the culture, mind-set, and history of the region, and thusly something that would actually have potential of having any positive effect, i might feel differently about the US stepping in. If the US stepped in out of actual concern for the fate of the Jewish people, i would definately be more in favor of involvement in the region. I guess it comes down to a "do the ends justify the means?" sort of thing. Being a big fat bully isn't a good thing to do, even when the big fat bully is beating up on someone who needs their ass kicked.

[doctorthoss]

http://66.246.23.2/~eolsen/archives/2003/02/26/131912.php

Naturally this isn't all knowing but...a intelligence analyst has predicted the war will start this weekend.

"War is over, if you want it."

-John Lennon.

Some pray, I hold on to song lyrics.

Entirely possible, but not likely. We don't have anywhere near the number of troops on the ground that we'd like to have. As we did in the first GUlf War, the media is giving us credit for having a lot more deployed early on than we've actually got. The build-up didn't get serious until Bush mobilized the reserves after Christmas, and it takes weeks to move a heavy division overseas. Even the light divisions -- such as the 101st Airborne -- take time to deploy (imagine moving 20,000 men by air, along with artillery, food, ammo, and all the other "tail" items used in modern warfare). Of course, that doesn't preclude us from taking them on with the two or so divisions we've actually got on the ground. But it would be riskier and run the risk of higher casualties, assuming that the Iraqis learned anything from the last time they fought us (which is very much in doubt).
The real problem, as I see it, is North Korea. Even if their recent movements are only a continuation of their traditional policy of brinkmanship, they could inadvertently trigger a war in any number of ways. We've kept a lot of our units (the Second Marine Division and the 25th Light Divsion in Hawaii) in reserve just in case the NKs get edgy. THe problem is, any war with them is likely to go nuclear very quickly -- one Department of Defense report estimated that there would be 1 million casualties in the first 24 hours of a new Korean war, and that's WITHOUT the use of nukes. Most of the losses would be civilians, unfortunately, due to the close proximity of Seoul to the border and the NKs' 8,000 or so artillery pieces. And, unlike Hussein, we KNOW more or less what the NKs have: a handful of nukes, plus damn near every chemical weapon known to man as well as pneumonic plague, smallpox, botulism, anthrax ... Not comforting.

[creapyrob]

...

The real problem, as I see it, is North Korea. Even if their recent movements are only a continuation of their traditional policy of brinkmanship, they could inadvertently trigger a war in any number of ways. We've kept a lot of our units (the Second Marine Division and the 25th Light Divsion in Hawaii) in reserve just in case the NKs get edgy. THe problem is, any war with them is likely to go nuclear very quickly -- one Department of Defense report estimated that there would be 1 million casualties in the first 24 hours of a new Korean war, and that's WITHOUT the use of nukes. Most of the losses would be civilians, unfortunately, due to the close proximity of Seoul to the border and the NKs' 8,000 or so artillery pieces. And, unlike Hussein, we KNOW more or less what the NKs have: a handful of nukes, plus damn near every chemical weapon known to man as well as pneumonic plague, smallpox, botulism, anthrax ... Not comforting.

About Korea, I know quite a few current and ex military service personell. They have served in S Korea. They were told that if shit came to shit they were nothing more than a speed bump. The N Korean military would obliterate them. And while Saddam is a bit of a nut job the N Korean president is certifiable. A real out of touch with this world, not real sure if he understands the implications of his actions whacko, at least from what I've heard, read, and seen.

So take that for what ever you think its worth.

[blindboy]

Oh, yeah, people were talking about assassination, too. Well, folks, unfortunately assassination is illegal.
...Or I could be wrong. But if you think I am, all I ask is that you tell me why

the assassination of a country leader in a time of "peace" is illegal. If we have openly declared war on a country we are well within our rights to try our damnedest to have her/him killed.

[pryjmaty]

I agree and disagree with this. I agree that Americans cannot understand the cultural mindset of the middleeast; however, I disagree about the US staying out of it. USA is one of the "superpowers" of the world. I believe that if it had not been for the backing of the US of Israel, Israel would have never even become a state.

The reasons for the US getting involved in the mid east come down to greed, oil, and money. Not concern over the plight of Jewish people. If the US actually took the time in planning its interventions in the region to come up with something taking into concern the culture, mind-set, and history of the region, and thusly something that would actually have potential of having any positive effect, i might feel differently about the US stepping in. If the US stepped in out of actual concern for the fate of the Jewish people, i would definately be more in favor of involvement in the region. I guess it comes down to a "do the ends justify the means?" sort of thing. Being a big fat bully isn't a good thing to do, even when the big fat bully is beating up on someone who needs their ass kicked.

Sorry, I have to disagree again. If the US was involved in the mid-east because of greed, they would STOP backing Israel. It is the arab nations that have the oil supply, not Israel. On a side note, don't have facts to back up the following statement, but I had heard that the US gets only 7% of our oil from Iraq. Has anyone else heard this or have facts on it?

[doctorthoss]

...


About Korea, I know quite a few current and ex military service personell. They have served in S Korea. They were told that if shit came to shit they were nothing more than a speed bump. The N Korean military would obliterate them. And while Saddam is a bit of a nut job the N Korean president is certifiable. A real out of touch with this world, not real sure if he understands the implications of his actions whacko, at least from what I've heard, read, and seen.

So take that for what ever you think its worth.

I'm inclined to agree with everything you just said. Our guys would be human speed bumps, just like they were the first time around in 1950. What scares me silly is their NBC potential -- it's one thing to lose a few thousand Americans in a war (we've done that many times), but it's another game entirely when you're talking about unleashing some kind of plague that'll take out a sizable chunk of the world's population.

[doctorthoss]

[

Sorry, I have to disagree again. If the US was involved in the mid-east because of greed, they would STOP backing Israel. It is the arab nations that have the oil supply, not Israel. On a side note, don't have facts to back up the following statement, but I had heard that the US gets only 7% of our oil from Iraq. Has anyone else heard this or have facts on it?[/quote]

I think our interests in the region are two-fold: on the one hand, we have back Israel since the 1960s and our two nations have grown quite close culturally, making it politically impossible for any American president to cut ties. On the other hand, we are sorely dependent on Middle Eastern oil. This dilemma has been debated intensely over the past decade.
I think we get even less oil from Iraq than your figure would suggest (although, since I'm not at work, I can't readily access that information). But a great deal of the Far East (Japan especially) and Europe get a much larger proportion of their oil from that area. Because of the global economy, if a shortage erupted that affected them it would hurt us just as badly -- Venezuela or other countries would have to pick up the slack, raising prices. THe key is keeping global prices stable.

[Deucalion]

C'mon, folks. I don't have enough time to post any respectable response, but I would like to flog a few of you for the treatment of my assassination post. The fact that it's illegal wasn't supposed to be a main point. I'm fully aware that we engage in ridiculously illicit endeavors all the time.

[mafiaman]

C'mon, folks. I don't have enough time to post any respectable response, but I would like to flog a few of you for the treatment of my assassination post. The fact that it's illegal wasn't supposed to be a main point. I'm fully aware that we engage in ridiculously illicit endeavors all the time.

Sorry, flogging is only allowed with consent given.
Just take your time when you have some and compose a response. The quality of the response will mean more than the timeliness of it.

[Nexxus23]

However, when in comes to the Isreal and Palestine i am all for Israel kicking Palestine's ass and keeping them out of the homeland.

Um... Israel didn't even exist until 1948, before then it was Palestine, where Palestinians lived and worked and raised children... and it's not just the Jewish "homeland," but the Muslims' and Christians', too. They all need to learn to share... apparently that lesson didn't get through to them in Kindergarten.

There needs to be a place where it is safe to be Jewish.

There's always New York City and Miami... (it's a joke, laugh a little, people...) Actually, it is unbelievably safe to be Jewish in the North (definetly safer than living in Israel now), there are Jewish communities all over New York who don't have problems with the neighboring Christians, or whoever else is whatever religion. Tolerance actually abounds up there. (one of the many reasons I get homesick...)

Besides, it's their Holy Land, regardless of what Christians or Muslims might think. Both of those religions are just off-shoot cults of Judaism. The Jews are G_d's chosen people and that is their land. At no point did any prophet make any mention of G_d saying something along the lines of "Oh.... this is just your Land until some wacko off-shoot group comes along and decides that they are the true faith. After they come along it belongs to them." So, the Muslims need to just back the fuck up.

OK, no need to get uppity. It's everyone's "Holy Land"... well, except mine. And... the Muslims are G_d's chosen people. So are the Christians. Hey, come to think of it, isn't every major religion G_d's chosen people? Heh... how ironic... You really can't use that argument in a logical discussion because it isn't logical. Sorry.

I don't mean to get, well, mean... but your arguement don't hold no water. No offense. I still like ya, Jenna...

[iblis]

There needs to be a place where it is safe to be Jewish.

is it not safe to be jewish in the states?


correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought there was some kind of "freedom of religion" law here.

[Nexxus23]

...
I am glad that you decided to add your voice to the discussion.
Thank You.

LMAO

Are you the conversation moderator now?

I'm kidding! Kidding, people...

[pryjmaty]

There needs to be a place where it is safe to be Jewish.

is it not safe to be jewish in the states?


correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought there was some kind of "freedom of religion" law here.

I think she was referring more to a country of their own. It is an impossibility for all of the Jews of the middle east(or any other country they are not welcom in) to take up residence in the US.

[mafiaman]

...


About Korea, I know quite a few current and ex military service personell. They have served in S Korea. They were told that if shit came to shit they were nothing more than a speed bump. The N Korean military would obliterate them. And while Saddam is a bit of a nut job the N Korean president is certifiable. A real out of touch with this world, not real sure if he understands the implications of his actions whacko, at least from what I've heard, read, and seen.

So take that for what ever you think its worth.

I'm inclined to agree with everything you just said. Our guys would be human speed bumps, just like they were the first time around in 1950. What scares me silly is their NBC potential -- it's one thing to lose a few thousand Americans in a war (we've done that many times), but it's another game entirely when you're talking about unleashing some kind of plague that'll take out a sizable chunk of the world's population.

My personal nightmare is, "We had to use thermonuclear weapons on the city to contain the spread of the plague."

[mafiaman]

...
I am glad that you decided to add your voice to the discussion.
Thank You.

LMAO

Are you the conversation moderator now?

I'm kidding! Kidding, people...

It is not my place to be moderator.
I will, however, try and act as a facilitator to this conversation.

[mafiaman]

There needs to be a place where it is safe to be Jewish.

is it not safe to be jewish in the states?


correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought there was some kind of "freedom of religion" law here.

There is. It is safe as it can be to be Jewish here.
Unfortunately there is also a long history of Jewish persecution in many countries including our own.

[Nexxus23]

There needs to be a place where it is safe to be Jewish.

is it not safe to be jewish in the states?


correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought there was some kind of "freedom of religion" law here.

I think she was referring more to a country of their own. It is an impossibility for all of the Jews of the middle east(or any other country they are not welcom in) to take up residence in the US.

Well... yeah... we knew that. I think the reaction was more of a "But there's places safer than Israel..." thing than a "Move all the Jews to America" thing...

Personally, when they created Israel, I believe they should have taken land out of Bavaria for it. Rich in natural resources, no Palestinians, the Germans prolly woulda left them alone (the loss of land would be viewed as punishment for the whole Holocaust thingy, German honor would dictate that they'd have to put up and shut up), and hey, it rains there.
Granted, the land they took for Israel is "holy" or whatever, but it is holy to a lot of people, not just Jews.
Besides, I get tired of hearing about the Israelis raping, pillaging, burning, looting, evicting, (name your atrocity here) the Palestinians.

The Israelis can bite me. They suck. They're all bitter and shit ("Oh woe are we, we are so persecuted, boo hoo...") and can't get over it.
People of my religion are persecuted too, even now, and I have yet to hear of a Pagan group who pillages and rapes because of it.

I hate to get all flamey, I won't do it again (I promise), but I really get ticked with this Israel arguement. I don't feel bad for them. I won't feel bad for them. The Palestinians get evicted from their homeland and we all expect them to be hunky-dory with it? Puh-leez.

[The Stormstress]

Martyr... Shmartyr... I never get 2 assassinate n e 1!

[iblis]

There needs to be a place where it is safe to be Jewish.

is it not safe to be jewish in the states?


correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought there was some kind of "freedom of religion" law here.

There is. It is safe as it can be to be Jewish here.
Unfortunately there is also a long history of Jewish persecution in many countries including our own.

i can't deny that. never has there been a worse buzz kill than a fucking nazi.

really what i should have said was, "is it any less safe to be jewish here, than it is to be anything other than <pick your flavor of> xtian?"

i'm not saying the jewish haven't been through great atrocities; that would be rather stupid. i'm just saying that the playground is dangerous for anyone who isn't either captain whitebread, or his uber-conservative wife. hell, it's been my experience that it can be dangerous for it to be rumored that you're not one with the xtian flock.

for this reason, i just don't think that there ever will be a "safe place" to be jewish. or agnostic. or pagan. or whatever. the closest you'll ever come would be either your friends and/or your family. and that's only if you're lucky enough to have good friends and/or family.

but i suppose that if one felt that it were possible, it could easily be thought as worth fighting for.

[pryjmaty]

There needs to be a place where it is safe to be Jewish.

is it not safe to be jewish in the states?


correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought there was some kind of "freedom of religion" law here.

I think she was referring more to a country of their own. It is an impossibility for all of the Jews of the middle east(or any other country they are not welcom in) to take up residence in the US.

Well... yeah... we knew that. I think the reaction was more of a "But there's places safer than Israel..." thing than a "Move all the Jews to America" thing...

Personally, when they created Israel, I believe they should have taken land out of Bavaria for it. Rich in natural resources, no Palestinians, the Germans prolly woulda left them alone (the loss of land would be viewed as punishment for the whole Holocaust thingy, German honor would dictate that they'd have to put up and shut up), and hey, it rains there.
Granted, the land they took for Israel is "holy" or whatever, but it is holy to a lot of people, not just Jews.
Besides, I get tired of hearing about the Israelis raping, pillaging, burning, looting, evicting, (name your atrocity here) the Palestinians.

The Israelis can bite me. They suck. They're all bitter and shit ("Oh woe are we, we are so persecuted, boo hoo...") and can't get over it.
People of my religion are persecuted too, even now, and I have yet to hear of a Pagan group who pillages and rapes because of it.

I hate to get all flamey, I won't do it again (I promise), but I really get ticked with this Israel arguement. I don't feel bad for them. I won't feel bad for them. The Palestinians get evicted from their homeland and we all expect them to be hunky-dory with it? Puh-leez.

Unfortunantly, I was just bragging to someone today about how pleased I was that this thread was able to continue in a logical way without flames. Oh well....this will be my last post on this thread as I refuse to engage in flaming.
I had originally planned to do a bit more research to give an educated responce to your post; however, I have changed my mind. There is no point. No matter what proof I deliver, your hatred will not allow you to accept it. I would encourage you to NOT take everything the media reports at face value and to do an indepth study of the middle east with an OPEN mind. I will not purposely insult you for your opinions. I do hope that your hatred for the Jewish people will not affect us getting together in social situations.