Farewell to Free Speech

[4X541N7]

This is a state university, not a public school, it isn't kids. I agree that open thought should be taught, but teaching open thought isn't the accusation here. The issue of his job security revolves entirely around "is he doing what he is paid to do?". The answer is yet to come, I don't know the school's policies for tenured professors to judge whether or not that is the case. But it is the allegation he has to defend himself from.

Yes...We aren't talking about public school...We are talking about a university...These people are supposed to teach 'higher' education...And it's not the fact that he was teaching this, which he may, or may not have been...It's the fact he wrote the paper...Which I completely agree with, BTW...He was fired for what he believes in...He was fired for his PRIVATE OPINIONS...Granted he voiced them for the public...But he did not pressure his students into that belief system...

Also...We did deserve what happened...& if we keep up our campaign of wrathmongering...We'll deserve it again...

[CrimeCore]

People say all the time "how could these people do these horrible things and kill thousands"

Well...half way across the world (and right down the street) People are dying of starvation and malnutrition. When they see the American people living in a complete disregard for how they affect others and they have what to them seems to be a perfectly comfortable and healthy life...I'd say they get pretty mad. Especially when American based countries come over there and make them work horrible hours for a few cents or bucks a week.

[4X541N7]

People say all the time "how could these people do these horrible things and kill thousands"

Well...half way across the world (and right down the street) People are dying of starvation and malnutrition. When they see the American people living in a complete disregard for how they affect others and they have what to them seems to be a perfectly comfortable and healthy life...I'd say they get pretty mad. Especially when American based countries come over there and make them work horrible hours for a few cents or bucks a week.

I think 9/11 is a major fucking consperacy...I mean in the '80's Osama Bin Laden was given over 3 Billion dollors to 'combar Soviet threats'...WTF...Ok...Let's rationalize this...Shall we?

In the event that the impending USSR doom fell upon our fragile skulls...Al Quada was supposed to attack the USSR...Um...Ok...Can we say 'covering our tracks'...That doesn't even make sense...

$3,000,000,000 is a shit-load of money in our eyes...Fuck, I'd like to have a hunk of that...But on a worldly scale...It's just a few bill in the collective wallet...an F-16 Fighter Jet costs about 26 million new...(Well, that government scale...So, they can cheat a few mill out of the humble taxpayers...But that's the US retail...)...So, basically, with this 3 Bill...Bin Laden could buy about 40 F-16's...That's it...What kind of attack would they wage against The Superpower that was the USSR?...Not much...

Wanna know where I think that money went...& was supposed to go?...Training Al Quada cells...Setting them up in various countries, including a majority in The US...Supplying them with basic munitions, weapons, etc...& laying dorment, for over 2 decades...Then................

BOOM!!!

Sept. 11th 2001...2 Bowing 747's slam into The World Trade Centers...Another puts it's mark on one side of The Pentigon...The last craching, near harmlessly, into the dirt...

Chaos erupts...Panic sweeps the US...People but non-parishables in mass...Purchaseing gas masks, chemical suits, & even body bags...For the coming Armageddon...The government responds to these acts form the 'Evil-Doers'...With a constrictive legislation...Putting a choke hold on all 'potential terrorist threats'...Our president warned us daily of the 'immediate threats'..All the while, his administration was pushing a New World Order over our heads...& pulling the wool over our eyes...Slavery in the name of safety...Even our money started to change...The US dollor bill began to take pecular coloration...Much like the currency of other nations, & most importantly The Euro...

Now...As we waged a 'War on Terrorism'...Our deficit fell into the mud...Sinking ever lower beneath the surface...Then...The fear of terror was no longer so 'immediate', despite what the media was telling us...We all, collectively, exhailed...Thought, the deception was still firmly in place...

So, Saddam Hussein now, suddenly, has 'Weapons of Mass Destruction'...So, off we go...'We are the Wrold Police...Gonna let everybody know...'...Then the deficit began to drown...Choking on mud, & lies...The gold that helped back it, wasn't enough...& the countries that we borrowed from, did not agree with our policies...And most don't to this day...

So, wheres the breaking point?...Where the countries that are finacially bakcing us say, 'We can no longer support you...If this is what you are going to do...Then you can do it alone...Where's our money?'...FUCK...The Dollar is now with the curriency of thrid-world countries, in the matter of worldly value...Fuck...Abort...Abort...

And thus...The Euro...One step closer to a One World Government....One means of currency...Means that almost all boundries, have been broken...

Side Note:...If you think I'm full of shit...Think about this...Ever wonder why the US combats all forms of government other than Democracy...Communism, Socialism, Dictatorships, etc...Even though, we currently have a Socialist in Congress?!?...

[Alur006]

Ever wonder why the US combats all forms of government other than Democracy...Communism, Socialism, Dictatorships, etc...Even though, we currently have a Socialist in Congress?!?...

Remove socialism from your statement, we haven't attacked anyone for socialism. Those other governments have oppressed the people they were meant to serve.

Your political affiliation has no part on whether or not you may run for congress. A socialist holds a seat in the house because the constituants of that district elected him. There is no law or ability for the rest of the house to deny him just because he's a socialist, nor should there be. He's the representative his people chose to forward their interests.

[Alur006]

And it's not the fact that he was teaching this, which he may, or may not have been

That's exactly what it was about, he can write whatever he wants. The issue is that he is/was teaching something contradictory or not related to what he is paid to teach. The bottom line of the acusation is that he wasn't doing his job according to the standards laid down by the university. Also, as of any news I can find right now, he's not been fired. If you have seen otherwise, do me a favor and post the link.[/quote]

[The Stormstress]

The linked article doez not mention him teaching this (while certainly an educ8or'z bias iz bound to cum across n hiz teachingz); it only mentionz the essay ... or did I miss sumthing?
... quite possible ...

Re: Govt War funding & 911/Bin Lauden scapegoatz ... just the more recent & bold nstallmentz ov th' ongoing conspiracy legacy (such iz Govt/Humanity), imo ...

Re: 1 World Govt/$/Euro ... Well on it'z way, imo ( Hello, Age ov Aquarius ...) & if dun wizely, could b a healing & defining time 4 our ntire planet ... ov cours, it'z gonna get worse b4 it getz better ... but, I digress ... 4 now ...

[Jack]

The fact that the US has funded "freedom fighters" in the Middle East since the 50s isn't even a "conspiracy theory", it's a matter of public record.

Weird shit happens all the time.

[4X541N7]

The fact that the US has funded "freedom fighters" in the Middle East since the 50s isn't even a "conspiracy theory", it's a matter of public record.

Weird shit happens all the time.

The fact that they gave them money wasn't really the point of the 'conspiracy therory'...It was simply a correspondence point for the consperacy...I don't know if Bin Laden was working for, or thinking he was working against, The US Government...Either way...Quite convenient...*rae*

[Jack]

The fact that they gave them money wasn't really the point of the 'conspiracy therory'...

Oh, I wasn't like, arguing with you, I was just making sure people knew that it's not only raving lunatics like you or I who believe stuff like that.

[Alur006]

The linked article doez not mention him teaching this

No it doesn't, but as I'm sure you're aware no one article ever tells the whole story. I've been following this issue since it first hit the news. University of Colorado wanted to fire him, but obviously they have do so by the rules that govern them. This is a tenured professor and as such has certain protections afforded him. At this time he is still employed and unlikely to be fired. However, since his little gem has gotten him all this media attention, his background has been further investigated. It's been discovered that over the years he's repeatedly attempted to declare himself a legally recognied Native American. He was discovered to be fraudelent (before this 9/11 issue) and has been rejected by the councils of multiple Native American tribes. I forget the total count, but I know he has tried to claim to be of the blood of no less than three seperate tribes. It's also been discovered he made an alledgedly illegal trip to Libya back in the early 90s back when sanctions and the like made it against the law to do so. This isn't some otherwise good guy with an extremist point of view, he has a very shady past and his comments have caused quite a stir and a closer look at his personal activities.

[4X541N7]

The linked article doez not mention him teaching this

No it doesn't, but as I'm sure you're aware no one article ever tells the whole story. I've been following this issue since it first hit the news. University of Colorado wanted to fire him, but obviously they have do so by the rules that govern them. This is a tenured professor and as such has certain protections afforded him. At this time he is still employed and unlikely to be fired. However, since his little gem has gotten him all this media attention, his background has been further investigated. It's been discovered that over the years he's repeatedly attempted to declare himself a legally recognied Native American. He was discovered to be fraudelent (before this 9/11 issue) and has been rejected by the councils of multiple Native American tribes. I forget the total count, but I know he has tried to claim to be of the blood of no less than three seperate tribes. It's also been discovered he made an alledgedly illegal trip to Libya back in the early 90s back when sanctions and the like made it against the law to do so. This isn't some otherwise good guy with an extremist point of view, he has a very shady past and his comments have caused quite a stir and a closer look at his personal activities.

Well, if he's not fired...Then obviously he's not teaching this point of veiw...They COULD fire him for teaching that...So...Your defense is?...

[Alur006]

What do you mean what is my defense? I don't recall defending any particular side of the arguement here. All I've done is tell you what's going on and what it's about. He is not fired right now, this is true. He's under a 30 day review as laid down by the tenants of his tenure. He may or may not be fired at the end, depending on the findings of this review. I said it's unlikely he'll be fired. That's my opinion.

As far as Free Speech plays into this issue, keep in mind that speech is protected from prosecution by the government. A place of business or job can hold you to different standards. For example, you could be fired from your job for calling someone by a racial slur, even in jest. You could be fired for swearing. The government isn't arresting this guy. Free Speech isn't in violation here, it's about workplace behavior. His place of business is investigating him for it, and they will act within the policies and bylaws of the University. We have another 20+ days before any real decision gets handed down.

[4X541N7]

What do you mean what is my defense?

The defence of your point...Which you stated...I wasn't trying to be an ass...I come off like that alot...Sorry...

I don't recall defending any particular side of the arguement here. All I've done is tell you what's going on and what it's about. He is not fired right now, this is true. He's under a 30 day review as laid down by the tenants of his tenure. He may or may not be fired at the end, depending on the findings of this review. I said it's unlikely he'll be fired. That's my opinion.

Actually, while you have told me a few details that I didn't know...You have also, so far, not pointed out anything very groundbreaking either...If he where teaching this to the class...They could terminate him on the spot...Contractual Breech...So...The most that he is 'guilty' of, is for writting the paper in the first place, as well as the book...Nothing more...

As far as Free Speech plays into this issue, keep in mind that speech is protected from prosecution by the government. A place of business or job can hold you to different standards. For example, you could be fired from your job for calling someone by a racial slur, even in jest. You could be fired for swearing. The government isn't arresting this guy. Free Speech isn't in violation here, it's about workplace behavior. His place of business is investigating him for it, and they will act within the policies and bylaws of the University. We have another 20+ days before any real decision gets handed down.

Since this is an incident outside of 'the workplace', as it where, I don't see how it's relevent...If indeed he is teaching these things in the classroom, or in anyother way, bringing it into the school...Then I completely agree...But until I know of that...Then I have to stand by Free Speech...

[Alur006]

If he where teaching this to the class...They could terminate him on the spot...Contractual Breech

No, no they couldn't. That is not how having tenure works. That's why a professor or teacher wants tenure. They can't fire you on the spot at all. It's VERY hard to get rid of a tenured professor even when they deserve it.

Since this is an incident outside of 'the workplace', as it where, I don't see how it's relevent...If indeed he is teaching these things in the classroom, or in anyother way, bringing it into the school...Then I completely agree...But until I know of that...Then I have to stand by Free Speech...

It's not "out of workplace". As a professor, his work and research is all funded by the university. In addition to that, he identifies himself as a UofC professor in his works. In doing so, he marks himself as someone representing the university. You *can* be fired from a job for behavior outside of it, if that behavior conflicts with the interests of said workplace. For example, as a Comcast employee, if I helped people steal cable or caused damage to the cable system in some way outside of work, I could be fire for it. In this case, the University may find he causes damage to the reputation of the school and misrepresents it publicly. But as per the laws of tenure, he undergoes a 30 day investigation to see if that is the case and a decision will be made then.

not pointed out anything very groundbreaking either

I'm not trying to say anything groundbreaking. I'mg trying to clear up misconceptions that have come up here. He has not been fired yet, and this really isn't a free speech issue. And even if it were, the government does not protect speech from consequences, only from prosecution. You still have to pay for what you say to your peers and coworkers and your bosses, especially in an instance such as this that is borderline hate speech.

[4X541N7]

If he where teaching this to the class...They could terminate him on the spot...Contractual Breech

No, no they couldn't. That is not how having tenure works. That's why a professor or teacher wants tenure. They can't fire you on the spot at all. It's VERY hard to get rid of a tenured professor even when they deserve it.

Since this is an incident outside of 'the workplace', as it where, I don't see how it's relevent...If indeed he is teaching these things in the classroom, or in anyother way, bringing it into the school...Then I completely agree...But until I know of that...Then I have to stand by Free Speech...

It's not "out of workplace". As a professor, his work and research is all funded by the university. In addition to that, he identifies himself as a UofC professor in his works. In doing so, he marks himself as someone representing the university. You *can* be fired from a job for behavior outside of it, if that behavior conflicts with the interests of said workplace. For example, as a Comcast employee, if I helped people steal cable or caused damage to the cable system in some way outside of work, I could be fire for it. In this case, the University may find he causes damage to the reputation of the school and misrepresents it publicly. But as per the laws of tenure, he undergoes a 30 day investigation to see if that is the case and a decision will be made then.

not pointed out anything very groundbreaking either

I'm not trying to say anything groundbreaking. I'mg trying to clear up misconceptions that have come up here. He has not been fired yet, and this really isn't a free speech issue. And even if it were, the government does not protect speech from consequences, only from prosecution. You still have to pay for what you say to your peers and coworkers and your bosses, especially in an instance such as this that is borderline hate speech.

Well I don't think it's a hate speech...But finally, I see your point....BTW...Thank you for doing research...That actually is very impressive...Most people just are too lazy...Myself included, sometimes...

[Alur006]

I try to stay informed. ^_^