Bush tells U.S. Iraqi war sacrifice "worth it"

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Post by tat2jay »

rec|use wrote:
just know that some of the things you cited in your earlier post are not completely accurate (through no fault of your own, you were just repeating what you have heard and believed to be true) no one can really know until they are there.


please tell me what's untrue

tell me what i've missed by not going to war

don't give me the fox news propaganda story either

give me the truth


ok - http://www.xanga.com/tat2jay
read from about august 2003 to about april 2004
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Post by rec|use »

ok dude i'm not gonna read a YEAR of your BLOG
to get your political commentary

either tell me what's untrue
or don't bother to respond

all you've done for this thread is a make one macho comment
and offered nothing to back your political view point
except to make a sideways insult at me
about what you feel is incorrect

(which suprise suprise mr unpopular opinion get's shit talked again on knoxgothic go figure that right)



with absolutely nothing to support that
except for telling me to read a years worth of your blog


say what you have to say
or move on to a new thread

i'm not trying to play twister debate
where i have to run all over the internet to get your arguements
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Post by Mother Mo »

That year's worth of blog entries was when he was stationed over there. I believe you had asked for truth & he kindly offered you some. No need to get snippy.
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Post by rec|use »

That year's worth of blog entries was when he was stationed over there.


and that's fantastic

but i'm not asking for a year's worth of someones personal thoughts , feelings, and experiences, while they were stationed somewhere

i'm asking
what was it that i said that was innaccurate

what ever it is provide me the the proof that it's wrong and i'll retract the statement



other than that it's all pretty much pointless conversation
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Post by tat2jay »

>ok dude i'm not gonna read a YEAR of your BLOG
>to get your political commentary

8 months actually

>either tell me what's untrue
>or don't bother to respond

>>this war much like vietnam isn't a war at all
>>it's terrorism

i disagree with this, too many points to go over on how i disagree on this, lets just say we disagree

>>and your rant about how you wish you were there so you could >>do your part
>>would change really fast once you got there and had to see the >>mangled corpses of women and children

first, have you seen many mangled corpses of women and children from this conflict? probably not, i was there i saw my share of unpleasent things, but no mangled corpses of women and children, this sounds like propaganda to me. what i did see were injured or dead insurgents and a few injured or dead american military.

>one of my best friends is a vet from desert storm
>and to hear some of the stories he's told about just that scenario >could change your tune in about 10 mins

that was a different conflict - diffrent rules - different situations

>ask a guy like him
>or any other vet who's went and killed for this country
>and suffers that guilt on a daily basis
>and now thanks to king george gets their support taken away >from them

i am a disabled vet - the VA is taking care of me just fine - not everyone agrees with me, but i have no complaints - differeing opinions again

>all you've done for this thread is a make one macho comment
>and offered nothing to back your political view point
>except to make a sideways insult at me
>about what you feel is incorrect

this just makes me chuckle a bit - sorry , didnt mean to be "macho"
just wanted people to get their facts straight before saying things

i didnt mean to make a sideways or any kind of insult at you -
thats not how i work - i am sorry if i came off that way (msg hardcoregirl if you think i am joking, i msged her shortly after i responded to your first post, worried that i might have offended you

>(which suprise suprise mr unpopular opinion get's shit talked >again on knoxgothic go figure that right)

im not sure i totally understand that sentace - please feel free to clearify

>with absolutely nothing to support that
>except for telling me to read a years worth of your blog

i just thought you would like better insight, you seemed very interested in the topic of how the people in the military deal with combat

>say what you have to say
>or move on to a new thread

>i'm not trying to play twister debate
>where i have to run all over the internet to get your arguements

i didnt want to argue - i fought the urge to respond to this post for a while, but i made the mistake, i have a hard time expressing my feelings about this topic with out getting overly emotional, i should have just sat on my hands, i hope this satisfies everyting, if not let me know.
thanks
and no offence intended.
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Post by rec|use »

i disagree with this, too many points to go over on how i disagree on this, lets just say we disagree


fair enough
but i can't be wrong for having an opinion


first, have you seen many mangled corpses of women and children from this conflict? probably not, i was there i saw my share of unpleasent things, but no mangled corpses of women and children, this sounds like propaganda to me. what i did see were injured or dead insurgents and a few injured or dead american military.


not upclose but on many news reports
from not only american but other countries
as well as in documentaries regarding the subject
i have seen mangled children and women




that was a different conflict - diffrent rules - different situations


war is war
i don't think the stories really change much
wether it's desert storm or what ever it is we are doing now




i am a disabled vet - the VA is taking care of me just fine - not everyone agrees with me, but i have no complaints - differeing opinions again



there again
fair enough
but it doesn't make me wrong
i'm going on the things that are expresses by news reports
and reports from people that i know that are also vets





i didnt mean to make a sideways or any kind of insult at you -
thats not how i work - i am sorry if i came off that way (msg hardcoregirl if you think i am joking, i msged her shortly after i responded to your first post, worried that i might have offended you


and please don't misunderstand me
i like to debate
it's no fun to preach to the choir
i have to have the other side to represent
in order have any type of conversation at all
i'm not offended what so ever
and don't think that i'm making some type of personal campaign against you when i respond i simply get emotional when i talk about things i care about

im not sure i totally understand that sentace - please feel free to clearify


had nothing to do with you or this conversation really




no offence intended.


none taken
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Post by Bone »

First off let me say glad to see everyone seems to be working out issues, "mostly" peacefully here. Please, lets keep it that way.
Personally I think this is a valid and important point of discussion, but everyone please try to respect everyone elses views, as unpopular or differing they are from your own.
Please proceed all....



Now for my 2 cents
I can't say if we have done any good for Iraq... I haven't been there before or after to expierence it. Should we have gone there? Not knowing what we have truely done for the country again I can't say.
I will say the terms under which we "supposedly" went to war I never agreed with and still don't. As time continues and more information comes to light, I feel we had absolutely no right, or real reason to do what we did, other than GW wanting to wave his penis at the world.

Let us not forget we did not invade iraq to liberate it, we did not go in because they made an attack on America and took American lives. We did not go in to remove a murdering tyrant. we didn't even goin because Osama Been-Forgotten was in Iraq. We went in because Saddam refused to give up his WMDs that still have yet to be found. We went in because of intelligence documents that are now shown to be lies and frauds to show Saddam had WMDs.
GW WANTED to invade iraq!
IMHO he played the American people like puppets with the 9-11 card to get what HE wanted. To that I don't know wether to be sick or sad.

The point to me, is not what we have done to or for Iraq. It's the reasons under which I see we went there and offerd up the blood and lives of our friends and family. It was wrong and GW is responsible IMHO for EVERY life that has been lost because of our invading Iraq.
Funny how Invading Iraq became Liberating Iraq when now WMDs were immediately found....

Honestly think about it... Before GW started in on the WMD stuff, did anyone really give a crap about Iraq?
Was invading Iraq ever something that would have been supported without the WMDs?

Damnit I didn't want to get into a bush rant..... off to bed.
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Post by 4X541N7 »

OK...I'm actually going to post on here...Finally...

And believe it or not...But, I'm not tearing into Judas...His points are just as viable as any of ours...& honestly...I'd believe Jay before most of you, about this issue...

But...For all of you spreading propaganda...Not cool...I don't know where you guys come up with this shit...Really...

My thoughts:

-This "war" WAS needed...
-This "war" lost focus of why it was needed...& is indeed a personal vendetta...
-This 'war' has done very little against 'terrorism'...
-The terrorist are justified for their actions against the US...Just a bad plan, though...
-Osama is not the real enemy here...But...Our actions as a nation...
-Yes, Osama did a horrible thing...
-Yes, I think that needs to be dealt with...
-No, he's not a mass-merdering fuckhead...
-Yes, we did support this attack finacially...
-Yes, I think it's a conspericy...
-No, I don't care what you have to say...

Honestly...Bush is one of the worst persidents we've had...But...You all act like this is his fault...All of it...Congress, His Cabinet...None of them had anything to do with it, huh?...Look at your own propaganda, for a second...How rediculous...This goes for both sides...Pro/Con...Grow up...
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Post by rec|use »

This "war" WAS needed...


why
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Post by TiredUnhappy »

I think that regardless of how bullshit this war is (and I personally feel that it is bullshit) the american people should feel priviledged that we are surrounded by two oceans. The US has always managed to piss alot of people off, and we are fortunate that we have the advantage of seeing them coming. Most of the time atleast. We haven't had to worry about people coming over to take over our dwindling freedom, and instead of bitching about how awful this and that is...just appreciate that you are still alive and able to walk the streets [for the most part] safely.

I feel for the families of both sides of the conflict, because I feel that their deaths are in vain. I don't think it's right, I think our world leaders just like to play games with one another, and use us as guinea pigs. Either way, this thread, the websites all over about it, none of that exactly changes it. It's still happening, and from what i've heard, it will continue to happen for quite sometime.

I personally feel that if people were so upset and disturbed by what is happening, they wouldn't sit on KG and bitch. Write a letter to the families, send a love offering to them. If you genuinely care about their loss, then do something genuine about it. You can't change what has happened, and none of us are in any position to stop it..so do what you can. If it really upsets you that much anyways...

Regardless of the politics, young men and women from our country, and civilians from iraq are gone.
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Post by 4X541N7 »

rec|use wrote:
This "war" WAS needed...


why


Why?...Because, Saddam is one of the worse leaders in the modern time...Because his fellow Iraqi leaders where horrible corrupt...& because Iraq deserves alot better state, than it has now...As far as what we are currently doing over there...That, my friend...Is what we in the 'know', like to call...'bullshit'...The insurgents just want us out of their country...But we've fuct things up so well...That we can't just leave it like it is...The emphisis on the word 'was', was to point out past tense...
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Post by rec|use »

i think that reasoning is a bunch of horse shit

we're doing the same thing in the middle east that we've done to latin nations

demonize the dictators
move in
set up shadow governments
revel in greed
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Post by debaser »

The conflict in Iraq does not serve the national interest.

We are spending enourmous amounts of money, not to mention lives, in the pursuit of a goal that cannot, and IMHO should not be attained.

The Iraqi people are neither equipped to deal with, nor deserving of democracy. Personal freedoms are alien to this culture, and us waving a wand and saying, "You are a democracy" will not fix the problem. Freedom has no value if it is not sacrificed for (case in point - the American electorate), and the Iraqis have done nothing to further the cause of their own democracy. Call me cynical, but the democratic process will fail here the second the US leaves. The Iraqis need a strongman to guide them, maybe not a shithead like Saddam, but some one.

The war in Iraq was started under false pretenses, and I for one dislike being lied to. I will not forgive the administration for that, especially since it has lead to the death of one of my closest friends, and the maiming of several others. That being said, we are now stuck here. There is no militarily or politicaly viable way for us to simply pull out of the country. We must see it through to the point when the country is stable enough for us to cut and run. The issue, again IMHO, is driven by very poor policy decisions from Washington. You do not hire a pro-wrestler to build a ship in a bottle. Nor do you use the US military to build a country. We beat the Iraqi military, and we can retrain them. What we are not equipped to do is rebuild the entire country, infrastructure, culture, and political system. That is what we are being asked to do, and in some cases it works, but for every success story there are 10 failures, some of them abysmal. Where is the State Department in all of this? Is our entire foriegn policy determined by the Secratary of Defence nowadays?

Terrorists. We are killing very few terrorists now. Most of the people we kill are poor schmucks who get paid $50 to take a pot shot at a patrol with an RPG or push the button on a bomb someone else made. Most do it just feed their families. The terrorists (loaded term) are the same ones who fought the Russians in Afghanistan (with our funding and training), and are now training a new generation in Somalia, Sudan, and Iraq. Extremism is on the increase worldwide, just look at recent events in Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Rather than stamping out terrorism (as likely as stamping out crime), we are feeding a growing jihadi movement on a world-wide scale.

This is getting long. I'll write more later.
Last edited by debaser on Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by creapyrob »

I had a pretty big go at this a long time ago on this forum and I've said what I have to say, so I'm just gonna jump in and say this.

rec|use wrote:demonize the dictators


We don't need to demonize, he's done a good enough job of that him self.
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Post by vertigo25 »

It isn't propaganda that the day after Congress passed a resolution to "Support Our Troops," the house of Representatives passed Bush's 2004 budget which reduced veteran's health care and benefit programs by nearly $25 billion over the next ten years.

You can read a bit about what the VA thinks about it here:
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0328-11.htm

There are many veterans of this war and other conflicts who do not feel the same as Justin: http://www.vaiw.org/

Anyone who knows me, knows how I feel. I don't support this war. I don't have a yellow ribbon on my car. I don't have a flag on my porch.

But I want to say here and now that I am and will always be proud of and grateful for the effort, bravery, and devotion that Justin and his brothers and sisters in arms have. I volunteered earlier this year to help make care packages to send to Iraq and Afghanistan. I also donated a small amount of money to a program to help soldiers buy their own armor (I'm poor, so it was only $10, but I hope it helped).

There is no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that America was lied to about our reasons for invading Iraq. There is no doubt that those who wanted to go to war in Iraq were told to wait by our allies, yet chose not to. They were told that the insurgency would grow larger the longer they stayed, and it has. They have, most certainly, abused their power.

Beyond these things, there is also the unseen things that may very well harm us in the future. The military in Iraq is made up mostly of men and women who would be first responders to domestic attacks and catastrophes. We have spent pennies to the dollar on actual security improvements domestically compared to the cost of invading a country which posed no immediate and direct threat to us. We have left ourselves exposed and vulnerable, and we have made ourselves hated by many who would wish to do us harm, and have alienated many who would help us if it came to that.

Worst of all, I believe, we've lost site of the mastermind of the group who attacked us on our own ground, and killed thousands of people in a matter of a couple hours.

I've heard that Bush truly believed (believes) the war is to make us safer. I've heard that the war was really for oil. I've heard that it is part of a grand and sweeping movement to democratize the world. I've heard that Bush wanted to go to war with Saddam Hussein because of an alleged assassination attempt on his father. I've heard a lot of reasons that we went to war, and I have not heard a good one, yet. Not when certain facts, like those I've mentioned, are presented.

There was no prudence in the initial build-up, no foresightedness in the invasion, and there is no contingency now.

It may only be my "opinion" that this war is wrong in every sense of the word, but it's not my "opinion" that makes me mourn the loss of 1,741 brave American men and women, or pity the 13,190 wounded. It's not "opinion" that makes me wonder how our involvement in this conflict can last longer than our involvement in World War II. No... it's cold hard facts. Facts that also lead me to "believe" that we have taken a very bad turn, and have let patriotism, nationalism, and fear blind us to our own sins.
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Post by Shadow »

debaser wrote:The conflict in Iraq does not serve the national interest.

We are spending enourmous amounts of money, not to mention lives, in the pursuit of a goal that cannot, and IMHO should not be attained.

The Iraqi people are neither equipped to deal with, nor deserving of democracy. Personal freedoms are alien to this culture, and us waving a wand and saying, "You are a democracy" will not fix the problem. Freedom has no value if it is not sacrificed for (case in point - the American electorate), and the Iraqis have done nothing to further the cause of their own democracy. Call me cynical, but the democratic process will fail here the second the US leaves. The Iraqis need a strongman to guide them, maybe not a shithead like Saddam, but some one.

The war in Iraq was started under false pretenses, and for one dislike being lied to. I will not forgive the administration for that, especially since it has lead to the death of one of my closest friends, and the maiming of several others. That being said, we are now stuck here. There is no militarily or politicaly viable way for us to simply pull out of the country. We must see it through to the point when the country is stable enough for us to cut and run. The issue, again IMHO, is driven by very poor policy decisions from Washington. You do not hire a pro-wrestler to build a ship in a bottle. Nor do you use the US military to build a country. We beat the Iraqi military, and we can retrain them. What we are not equipped to do is rebuild the entire country, infrastructure, culture, and political system. That is what we are being asked to do, and in some cases it works, but for every success story there are 10 failures, some of them abysmal. Where is the State Department in all of this? Is our entire foriegn policy determined by the Secratary of Defence nowadays?

Terrorists. We are killing very few terrorists now. Most of the people we kill are poor schmucks who get paid $50 to take a pot shot at a patrol with an RPG or push the button on a bomb someone else made. Most do it just feed their families. The terrorists (loaded term) are the same ones who fought the Russians in Afghanistan (with our funding and training), and are now training a new generation in Somalia, Sudan, and Iraq. Extremism is on the increase worldwide, just look at recent events in Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Rather than stamping out terrorism (as likely as stamping out crime), we are feeding a growing jihadi movement on a world-wide scale.

This is getting long. I'll write more later.


Agreed.

I support the troops and empathize with the families however; this 'conflict' need to end. Bring our troops home. Let the Gods sort out the rest.
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Post by miz kitty »

While I do not support the war (or war in general), I will not say we are not doing any good. I have seen some good come from it, namely in the quality of life of the Iraqi people. Did something need to be done? Yes. Why did we have to be the ones to do it? That's one I can't answer for you. Why do the men and women of our armed forces have to risk their lives and die for it? I can't answer that either. I have the utmost respect for our troops. In fact, my cousin Bo is there right now. I really just want him to come home safely. I think what chaps my ass about it all is when Bush makes these statements about it all being worth it. How the hell would he know about sacrifice, being away from your family, risking your life for the sake of freedom? The asshole supposedly served in the air national guard or some bullshit, but there is very little record of any military service. He basically showed up on picture day! At least Clinton pretty much admitted to being a draft dodger. I think it is a complete and utter disrespect to our troops to be commanded by some one who can't even pronunce his cue card properly. Most of our politicains are a bunch of rich fat cats (no disrespect to cats) who have never served in the military, yet they make decisions that affect thousands of soldiers *on our behalf* because they supposedly represent the American people. The whole thing is a freaking mess. I just pray for the troops to be kept safe, and look foreward to getting the talking monkey out of office in three and a half years.
Also, just a little known fact, the largest known terrorist group in the world is an ecoterrorist organization based out of Oregon right here in the good old U S of A.
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Post by junkie christ »

miz kitty wrote: At least Clinton pretty much admitted to being a draft dodger. I think it is a complete and utter disrespect to our troops to be commanded by some one who can't even pronunce his cue card properly.

hahahahahahah
thats one of my favorite bush statetments ever
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Post by Mother Mo »

No matter how we feel about the motivations, the fact remains that we're there & we still need to clean up the mess we helped make before we check out. They still need electricity & running water for the popluace & not just for a few hours a day. We got alot of folks over there trying to set things right & we support their efforts... even as we debate the merits of their commanders & some of their orders. Necessity is the mother of invention & this conflicy will undoubtedly necessitate a closer look at how we conduct ourselves & make plans for these kinds of situations. Change will be slow, but it will come.

In the mean time, yes the US is establishing itself as a military presence in the area & of course the oil flow is the underlying factor far more than any humanitarians factor, at least to the guys who decide these things. Rather than singing a pretty song about how we will liberate the masses, I would've appreciated a more frank response about how terrorists are x amount of car bombs away from controlling the world's oil supply & something had to be done, but that doesn't spin as well. No amount of name calling will change what has already occurred. Now its up to our troops & their leaders to make the best of a very ugly situation. I wish them all the best in that & anxiously await what the next administration offers. Nothing will really change until then, but maybe we can get a few more families the electricty & water they need while the big dogs bark on about the rest.
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Post by uncle goth »

bone is my hero,what he said. bless
mo for once again being the voice of reason
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