Say Bye Bye to overtime (politics again)

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junkie christ
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Post by junkie christ »

ill answer B
the polls
deans appeal tp the 18-30's and internet generation is HUGE.... an entire legion of unpolled voters..........
most of his ideas have a huge appeal to people afraid to admit
people hate bush and people know deans name
the right wings fear of him undoing bush's bullshit policies, including the ones hes trying to enforce now.,........ one of the reason right wing media bashes him ALLDAY LONG
these are the starting points, id be happy to discuss more to anyone in person, not to prove im right but to hear the other side
friendly debates help encourages reinforcement of opinion. :-D
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Post by Balance »

Man, i've been watching CNN like crazy the last 2 weeks and i might know why dean has appeal to youth-he's been ripping off NADER"s material!
I saw nader on some show like "crossfire" and he was all pissed of about how dean was taking (borrowing) his stances down to his very terminology.
hmm.
I also head Michael Moore was behing clark.
telling.
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Post by junkie christ »

even if his views are close to nader, ive been supporting nader for 8 years and im tired of backing a dead horse
he will NEVER get elected. not a chance.
dean could be, ill back that.
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Post by QueenOfTheFlock »

Balance wrote:a few thoughts.

a. bush wasn't elected the first time-he was appointed
b. junkie mentiond on dean has a prayer of taking bush down..why is that? are his credentials superior? Which leads me to
c. Clark is the finest sounding candidate, imho. he has an impeccable track record.
d. I've never voted and hate politicians, but reaaaalllly dislike bush-and dean to a much, much lesser degree-but when i vote, i'm voting for clark.


I agree with Balance here. From my first glimpse of Clark, I've been a fan. If he makes it to the big election, he's who I will be voting for. I think he'd do this country a lot of good.
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Post by gray »

The troublesome part of this process is that it will eventually boil down to a one on one race. Shrubbie (man that rocks, I hadn't seen it before either) will go toe to toe against someone. Whoever that someone is he/she must get more votes than Bush by a strong margin. Sadly you have ALL the Bush supporters voting for Shrubbie, but the Bush dissenters are voting for different people. This divides their totals so that Shrubbie gets a higher number of votes than any of the competition. So in effect to tackle a president with approximately 50% support you have to focus your votes on a single person. This is why the Democrats will fail. Quite simply the party can't get it's act together soon enough to form a collective assault on the Shrubbie administration and support structure.

I don't support Shrubbie in the slightest, I just accept that we have to decide on a lesser evil as a group or the greater evil stays in power. Statistically speaking Dean has the best chances. Morally speaking he still sucks, but bear in mind he has been demonized since last April by the media groups and his own party.

Consider this as well. The Republican Party has orchestrated and executed a concerted ongoing attack on the Democratic Party for more than a decade. As a result the Democratic party has suffered severe losses in the State and local legislatures. Recent redistricting due to the last census has provided stronghold seats for the Republicans as well. Collectively this shows blatant abuse of power on the part of businesses, special interests, and the Republican party. Sadly the pendullum is swining right with much more momentum than before and the problems we see today are unlikely to change in the near future. So what do we do?

Pay close attention to local races, state legilatures, what happens in the next presidential election, remember it, and ultimately vote.

If we don't start thinking strategically the right wing neo-cons will continue to hold the upper hand. You simply can't beat them with moral approaches. Just take a look at poor O'Neil for instance.

enough of that...
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Post by Mother Mo »

Well said, gray.
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Post by Arkady »

I'm afraid that the problem runs deeper than that. The fact is that the choice between the GOP and Democratic parties is really no choice at all. They both have the same agendas; power and greed through corporate control.

In the 1920’s Madison Avenue developed “the philosophy of futility” which basically stated that the leaders of industry and corporations have to make sure that the general public does not make use of the democratic opportunities available to them so that they could be left to run things as they wished. The way they did this was to direct people to superficial things like fashionable consumption (and in most cases over consumption IMO). From childhood, we as a general populace have been hooked on propaganda filled sitcoms, cartoons, and force fed the idea that everything is ok and in working order as long as we stay in our place and allow the few to remain in control and rich.

Anyone attempting to rock the boat so to speak is ostracized or simply left out of the game. A great example of this would be Ralph Nader's attempt to be allowed to be in the 2000 presidential debate as the Green Party candidate. When he arrived at the debate he was turned away by security and told he would not be allowed to participate. Following that, a supporter of the green party gave him tickets so that he could at least watch the debate from the audience. Nader was again turned away and told that he would be arrested if he attempted to enter the building.

My point here is that the people in charge of the system do not want you to actually have a choice but do want you to believe that you do. It's much the same as being a rat in a maze. You can go any way you want but you are still stuck in a maze.

I don't know about many of you but I have since high school felt a serious sence of hopelessnes concerning the ways of our government. I wanted to fight the system in hopes that I could help to make a change for the betterment of all people but have not known how to do so. As I have gotten older and studied more, I have come to realise that this sense of hopelesness was pre-planed before I was even born.

In the 20th century, the phrase “manufacture of consent” was invented buy Walter Lippman who was the big media business guy and his idea basically stated that it’s necessary to "manufacture consent" in order to make sure that the business leaders of the world (the so called the responsible men) can run the affairs of the world without being bothered. Basically that means that you have been misdirected into focusing your energies on things other than how the world is really run.

The bottom line is that big business buys a candidate through campaign contributions and "good ol boy network" styled back room business practices so that when their candidate wins the election, they in turn make 10 times that back through government contracts.

So, you tell me, where's the choice?
Last edited by Arkady on Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mother Mo »

I'll choose the lesser of the two evils, which has always been (for me) the democratic nominee. All politicians are bought & paid for by one corporate evil or another. That's a given. I just want Bush gone. He's clearly the greater of the evils & the greatest of the idiots. Whoever the majority of the population can get behind to go against him, I'm for too.

I know some people will see this as wrong for one reason or another, but it's the safest bet in my opinion. Whatever candidate they offer, be it Clark, Dean, or even Gephart, I'll give them my vote. Not because they necessarily deserve it thhe most, but because George deserves it the least.

I think it's fair to say that Dean's got the best chance so far, so my interest now is in who's going to be playing second fiddle? Until then, may "Shrubbie" stay safe & well, cause hell is a cake walk compared Cheney with more power. :roll:
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Post by satanskitten »

While I'm not as read on any of this..I have come to notice that the biggest problem with our government system is that it still exists. It seems to fit right in with a lot of other stuff in the good in theory bad in practice category. I will vote and I will vote for whomever seems the strongest candidate that is not Bush. I have never voted for Bush but if he does get reelected just remember that it's only 4 more years and then he's out for good.
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Post by Synthpopalooza »

satanskitten wrote:While I'm not as read on any of this..I have come to notice that the biggest problem with our government system is that it still exists. It seems to fit right in with a lot of other stuff in the good in theory bad in practice category. I will vote and I will vote for whomever seems the strongest candidate that is not Bush. I have never voted for Bush but if he does get reelected just remember that it's only 4 more years and then he's out for good.


The man can do a lot of damage in 4 years. :(

He's already made it to where you can get arrested on suspicion of being a terrorist, get locked up without being told what you've done, and be held without due process (read The Patriot Act) ... He's led us into a war on false pretenses. He is leading our country down the road to ruination.

I will not stand for another 4 years of George Bush's idiot son.
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junkie christ
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Post by junkie christ »

with dean's progress stunted in iowa im wondering how much of the democratic parties the republicans control.
you couldnt convince me any populus of any state of people even know who kerry is. or edwards.. (WTF?!?!? EDWARDS!?!??! THE MAN ANNOUNCED HIS RUNNING ON THE FUCKING DAILY SHOW?!?!?) who got a resonable second. dean had the largest of the 3 in shows of numbers, the most out of state help, and mysteriously got slaughtered. maybe appealing to the internet generation at this point in time screwed him outta his primary audience.. but i think its just they are elminating threats to bush. Gephart... i hate the man but he had a large following and could be a threat....
and people backing Clark need a fucking reality check. no democratic candidate has EVER been elected to run for prez without at least showing up in iowa... and Clark didn't even show. CNN has bashed him shitless (and CNN rarely throws name calling to underdogs anyway) over his "im too good for iowa" approach. they constantly throw that fact up too (the iowa correlation to candidate status..)
I think Clark is another bush-created distraction at this point. i truly do. dean and the G-man could do some damage... but mysteriously noone likes them when polling comes around dispite their outpour of support. media teaches you to hate dean, so most hate dean on principle. most people that are against him havent even read up on him. that bothers me badly. but kerry?? wtf? does anyone else think hes a bush in democrats clothing??? a wag the dog, a decoy, ect ect ect. the equal here would be like when dole wanted a piece of clinton except people KNEW WHO DOLE WAS..... shitttttt...
i think kerry is shady as fuck. i watched his announcement to run for president live (i did say it was good taste to declare your bid wearing your UBER-DECORATED military gear at a base during a time of war and talk about how we need to come home when your that decorated.. i liked that.. but when the debates started he changed his mind a few times on where he stood....)and just watching his lack of charisma and undead demeanor... the man creeped me out.
edwards i like. ive read up on him, some i like some i dont all of it is better than bush. ALL OF IT. i would back edwards if he walked out as the D candidate all the way to the white house, just not like i back dean. americans love slow talking southerners.. and i do to if hes my prez... do i think he has a prayer? better than that zombie fuck kerry thats for damn sure.
_________
the point here is this....
its going to take a miracle to get bush out of office. he cheated his way into office (how quick we forget the FL scam) and he will cheat his way into another term by using all covert and public means he can to disable his worthy foes.
i think hes already trying to disable what he sees as threats and (in dean's case) is doing it.
clark is a joke, he didnt even show to iowa. any good thing you say to be about clark ill go IOWA IOWA IOWA!!! if he hasnt dropped out yet he will.. havent looked at the news since iowa's initial results came back outta terror and fear. shock and awe if you will.
kerry is probably a scam job as well.

my plea is this, no matter who the democrat is, fucking vote for em and get bush outta their. shadow agendas or no, its NOT BUSH.
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Post by Mother Mo »

Kerry's so goth! :twisted:

Seriously, though, I was very surprised by the Iowa results. One thing's for sure. It's going to be interesting!
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Re: loss of overtime is being driven by the gas prices

Post by lucious »

shadow dancer wrote:

I just got informed today that some schools today are teaching hour-a-week "bully" classes, i.e. teaching kids not to be bullies and how to deal with bullies. Isn't this something that should be taught at home? Maybe I was just a spoiled child to have the parents I have. I'll get off my soapbox for now.


To me it depends on how you're taught to defend against the bully. Schools, as we all know, will not advocate violence, although that's the bully's main method. From the schoolyard to the stock exchange to the front lines, bullies use might to make right. So if the school teaches you to combat this reality without using real combat, what have they really taught you? They've taught you how to be bullied, thazright.

Dean will be the next president because the media have chosen him, just like they chose Clinton and W. Americans vote out of fear rather than intelligence; and the media mediates our political participation in this society. Therefore whatever the media says to do, vote-wise, is what Americans will do.

For all the election year talk about 'issues,' candidates campaign on the topics chosen by the media to run stories on, stories they claim to be running because the topics were demanded by the public. It seems to me that there are issues like food, shelter and clothing that supercede issues like war, commerce and the stock market; and isn't it strange to think that millions of Americans who can barely pay their rent just can't do without stock updates every day? It's really the business culture that dictates the 'issues' of our campaigns, while the rest of America feels like their political participation is a game of 'catch-up' with the 'real world'.
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