Hey skeptics...

If it's not covered by one of those other categories, you should probably talk about it here. Be nice.

Postby vertigo25 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:32 pm

We haven't evolved from apes.

Humans are a member of the family Hominidae. We and our cousins are referred to as "hominids." As such, we all share common genetic ancestors. At certain points along our genetic evolution we all branched off from each other.

Technically, Apes are hominoids (note the difference.. not hominids), and to be honest, I'm not precisely sure how we are connected. That is, I don't know if our genetic ancestry goes back to a common ancestor or not. My guess would be that we do, since we share so many common genetic traits.

An easy way to think of it is like this: When people push genetic manipulation in things like raising orchids and breeding dogs, the original forms do not necessarily die out.

It's easy to not really get this because of terms like "Survival of the fittest." Natural selection actually favors diversity.
The firemen came and broke through the chimney top. And me and Mom were expecting them to pull out a dead cat or a bird. And instead they pulled out my father. He was dressed in a Santa Claus suit. He'd been climbing down the chimney... his arms loaded with presents. He was gonna surprise us. He slipped and broke his neck. He died instantly. And that's how I found out there was no Santa Claus.
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Postby Hardcoregirl » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:38 pm

I took primate evolution a couple years ago and it was so fascinating, though very complex. I just remember studying the similar structures in cranial morphology and it was insane. There wasn't really any doubt in my head, but when you look at the casts of the fossils they've found of I'm not sure how anyone can doubt it, unless you think "god" is fucking with our heads...

"God put those here to test our faith."
"I think God put you here to test my faith, dude. I think I've figured this out."

Does that-- That's what this guy said. Does that bother anyone here? The idea that God might be fucking with our heads? Anyone have trouble sleeping restfully with that thought in their head? God's running around burying fossils: "Ho ho! We'll see who believes in me now, ha ha! I'm a prankster God. I am killing me, ho ho ho!"
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Postby footprintzinthesand » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:06 pm

erased----------I love the Heavenly Creator.
Last edited by footprintzinthesand on Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Bigun » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:13 pm

Hardcoregirl wrote:
Bigun wrote:My head hurts...


Aw we huwt him wittle bwain. ;)

I suggest you stay far from this thread if this causes physical pain lol.


No, eye strain. My eyes can only handle so much bullshit....
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Postby Hardcoregirl » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:27 pm

Bigun wrote:
Hardcoregirl wrote:
Bigun wrote:My head hurts...


Aw we huwt him wittle bwain. ;)

I suggest you stay far from this thread if this causes physical pain lol.


No, eye strain. My eyes can only handle so much bullshit....


So if this was about ghost hunting, feng shui, chakras, jesus, ESP, or psychics I guess you'd find it more factual, or *not* bullshit?
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Postby Bigun » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:12 pm

Hardcoregirl wrote:
Bigun wrote:
Hardcoregirl wrote:
Bigun wrote:My head hurts...


Aw we huwt him wittle bwain. ;)

I suggest you stay far from this thread if this causes physical pain lol.


No, eye strain. My eyes can only handle so much bullshit....


So if this was about ghost hunting, feng shui, chakras, jesus, ESP, or psychics I guess you'd find it more factual, or *not* bullshit?


Being skeptical is one thing... to actually have questions or doubts about someone else's belief's... everyone has the right to that. But to attempt to change someone's belief on a topic based totally within the realm of skepticism is lucid and unfounded. It's like trying to convice the Amish to drive cars.

What I think is bullshit is pages upon pages of text being typed in false hopes of changing someone's mind one way or the other. It takes a special breed of person to actually listen to what someone has to say and actually digest it. Those types of people are very rare these days.
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Postby vertigo25 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:29 pm

Bigun: Please point out where anyone has attempted to change anyone's beliefs in this thread.

I think you should go back and read the entire thread. Who came in and challenged the beliefs of whom?

Hint: It's the second post in the thread.

FWIW, I actually *would* attempt to change certain beliefs of some people. I have no problem with that whatsoever. Especially beliefs that can be shown to be harmful to the world at large.

I would not try to convince the Amish to drive cars (incidentally, the Amish *do* drive cars, and use computers and do all kinds of things I'm sure you'd be very surprised at). That is actually not even just an non-harmful belief to hold, but is very positive for the world in practice.
The firemen came and broke through the chimney top. And me and Mom were expecting them to pull out a dead cat or a bird. And instead they pulled out my father. He was dressed in a Santa Claus suit. He'd been climbing down the chimney... his arms loaded with presents. He was gonna surprise us. He slipped and broke his neck. He died instantly. And that's how I found out there was no Santa Claus.
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Postby Bigun » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:54 pm

I meant this arguement for both sides.

As far as the "Amish" comment goes, I meant that loosely.

Again... head hurt...
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Postby footprintzinthesand » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:04 pm

I'd like to change the beliefs of people who believe that football is awesome...... VOLS SUCK!!!

*gets shot at*
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Postby Bigun » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:16 pm

humanponygirl213 wrote:I'd like to change the beliefs of people who believe that football is awesome...... VOLS SUCK!!!

*gets shot at*


I'll drink to that
:beer:
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Postby footprintzinthesand » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:23 pm

Bigun wrote:
humanponygirl213 wrote:I'd like to change the beliefs of people who believe that football is awesome...... VOLS SUCK!!!

*gets shot at*


I'll drink to that
:beer:


What? Football/especially VOLS sucking, or me getting shot at? Haha..... :-)
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Postby Hardcoregirl » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:29 pm

You could get a time machine and take creationists back through the steps of evolution and they still wouldn't believe it. Trying to change believers minds is about as likely as we are going to change the minds of suicide bombers. Fanatics and fundamentalists are brainwashed and do not want to see the truth. The truth and any evidence pointing towards it is too scary.

My goal in this thread was to facilitate discussion amongst skeptics and rational thinkers...thats why I titled it "hey skeptics."

Personally I think believing, not doubting is the easy part. Who doesn't wish there was an omipotent loving god, ghosts coming back from an afterlife or that arranging your furniture can make you wealthy. What an awesome world that would be. Wouldn't it really be cool if we could all live in Hobbiton?

It is kind of hard not wanting to encourage people to use their brains, even if it is sometimes as fruitful as bashing one's head against the wall. Its like you have a key to grasping whats going on in the world and no one wants to listen. Its just that we have biology, geology, astronomy and the like as our guides, not a book written by man thats been edited 20 thousand times.

I really want that Dawkins book. I remember trying to read "The selfish gene' when I was in middle school and I think it was above my head at the time, I was more interested in boys and grunge music I guess, lol.

One absolutely fabulous book on rational thinking is " The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan. Its pure poetry.
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Postby vertigo25 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:55 pm

I've been watching... and re-watching Cosmos over the past few weeks.

I look at that, and I think... How can atheists be the most mistrusted group in America (if not the world) when you have something like that speaking in it's favor. Cosmos is one of the most beautifully written cases for peace I've ever read, seen, or thought.

It also makes me wonder how so many people can claim that science is boring and the reason no one wants to believe in it is because t takes the beauty and mystery out the world.

There are times watching that show that I want to cry; I pity mankind so much. So much power, so much beauty... so much wasted fucking potential.
The firemen came and broke through the chimney top. And me and Mom were expecting them to pull out a dead cat or a bird. And instead they pulled out my father. He was dressed in a Santa Claus suit. He'd been climbing down the chimney... his arms loaded with presents. He was gonna surprise us. He slipped and broke his neck. He died instantly. And that's how I found out there was no Santa Claus.
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Postby iblis » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:13 pm

Hardcoregirl wrote:Personally I think believing, not doubting is the easy part. Who doesn't wish there was an omipotent loving god, ghosts coming back from an afterlife or that arranging your furniture can make you wealthy. What an awesome world that would be. Wouldn't it really be cool if we could all live in Hobbiton?

hahahahahaha

:tup:

i'm stealing that for a sig, if you don't mind.
If carpenters made buildings the way programmers make programs, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy all of civilization. — Anonymous
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Postby Hardcoregirl » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:18 pm

vertigo25 wrote:I've been watching... and re-watching Cosmos over the past few weeks.

I look at that, and I think... How can atheists be the most mistrusted group in America (if not the world) when you have something like that speaking in it's favor. Cosmos is one of the most beautifully written cases for peace I've ever read, seen, or thought.

It also makes me wonder how so many people can claim that science is boring and the reason no one wants to believe in it is because t takes the beauty and mystery out the world.

There are times watching that show that I want to cry; I pity mankind so much. So much power, so much beauty... so much wasted fucking potential.


I am ashamed to say I haver seen cosmos! I have the book by Sagan. What channel is it coming on, the science channel? I have a DVR so I can record it. I'd love to watch it with my son.

I totally feel you on the pitying of mankind. So much unneeded suffering, cruelty, intolerance, and hatred, so many sparked by fundamentalism. Think of all the people that have died because of 9/11. Are we close to 2000 soldiers now? The crusades, the witch burnings, etc, etc. Its so freaking sad and so unneccessary.

I think we should call these years "The Second Dark Ages" because of how backward things have gotten. Who could have ever thought in the year 2006 we'd still be so behind.

I always laugh when I see that bumper sticker that says:

"Imagine there's no heaven"

Its always beside pro life type stickers. I can't believe they can take the man so incorrectly.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
Nowhere below us
Above only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace..."
"
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Postby Hardcoregirl » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:20 pm

iblis wrote:
Hardcoregirl wrote:Personally I think believing, not doubting is the easy part. Who doesn't wish there was an omipotent loving god, ghosts coming back from an afterlife or that arranging your furniture can make you wealthy. What an awesome world that would be. Wouldn't it really be cool if we could all live in Hobbiton?

hahahahahaha

:tup:

i'm stealing that for a sig, if you don't mind.


Aw shucks.
I'm so proud.
I'm attached to Iblis's posts.

I'd like to thank the Academy...
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Postby vertigo25 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:27 pm

Hardcoregirl wrote:I am ashamed to say I haver seen cosmos! I have the book by Sagan. What channel is it coming on, the science channel? I have a DVR so I can record it. I'd love to watch it with my son.


It is on the the Science Channel every Tuesday at 9, but I'm watching it on my computer.

If you can rent the DVDs, I'd recommend that route. I think they may be available at Blockbuster, but I'm not 100% positive. Call around. Watching them in order is, I think, the best way. It really builds a story and makes it seem more like a whole.

BTW, it moves pretty slow for most kids, but it also is incredibly beautiful in parts. The new DVDs have had new graphics put in and there are parts that are pretty visually stunning. Aurora really liked that part of it.
The firemen came and broke through the chimney top. And me and Mom were expecting them to pull out a dead cat or a bird. And instead they pulled out my father. He was dressed in a Santa Claus suit. He'd been climbing down the chimney... his arms loaded with presents. He was gonna surprise us. He slipped and broke his neck. He died instantly. And that's how I found out there was no Santa Claus.
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Postby vertigo25 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:37 pm

BTW... tonight's episode is Heaven and Hell which is the 4th in the series. Not *too* late to jump in.

Also, here's the schedule for the rest of the series. They repeat the episode several times, so if you miss it on Tuesday, or your DVR messes up, you'll have more than one opportunity :)
The firemen came and broke through the chimney top. And me and Mom were expecting them to pull out a dead cat or a bird. And instead they pulled out my father. He was dressed in a Santa Claus suit. He'd been climbing down the chimney... his arms loaded with presents. He was gonna surprise us. He slipped and broke his neck. He died instantly. And that's how I found out there was no Santa Claus.
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Postby vertigo25 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:38 pm

Doh! I also just realized that it's already 9:30 there!
The firemen came and broke through the chimney top. And me and Mom were expecting them to pull out a dead cat or a bird. And instead they pulled out my father. He was dressed in a Santa Claus suit. He'd been climbing down the chimney... his arms loaded with presents. He was gonna surprise us. He slipped and broke his neck. He died instantly. And that's how I found out there was no Santa Claus.
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Postby Asher » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:55 pm

im not imbred..but i do believe in creation..i also believe in evolution to a certain degree. To me, god set the laws of science in place..hanging everything as it should be to run on its own like a machine..adaptation and evolution included.

so i guess im a creavolutionist. heh.
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