Magic is afoot!

By popular request - we're not sure what you'll do with it, but we're game.

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Magic is afoot!

Postby Scorptrio » Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:05 pm

As some of you may know, I've been active in the magical community for sixteen years and have been studying and practicing magic for a little longer than that. I'm interested in meeting and talking to any of you who have similar interests.

People might go by any or none of the descriptive names: witch, wicca, pagan, neo-pagan, pantheist, gnostic, mystic, shaman, qabalist, mason, new ager, druid, rainbow path, red path, native path, ceremonial magician, astrologer, spiritualist, clairvoyant, medium, seer, channel, psychic, visionary, mystic Christian, etc.

If this is you, post a reply, send an e-mail or contact me on a messenger program.

Blessings,
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Postby JaNell » Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:29 pm

:shrug:
I'm Pagnostic, myself.
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Postby The Stormstress » Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:25 pm

Descriptorz, catagoriez, & pathz aside... Magick livez!
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Postby Nexxus23 » Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:46 pm

I guess as an introduction...

I'm a neo-pantheistic agnostic atheist and a practicing Witch of 10 years (give or take a year...).

Now the run-down...

Neo-pantheism- the belief that if there is a god/dess, it would be the combination of all things, all places, all truths, all times, altogether.

Agnostic- I logically cannot believe or disbelieve in deities.

Atheist- Some deities (logically) do not exist (YHWH, for example).

I practice an amalgam of Witchcrafts, philosophically based in Cabot's American style, but with tinges of other traditions. There's really no term for it. IMO, what works, works. :mrgreen:
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Postby Mother Mo » Sat Sep 27, 2003 8:58 pm

I'm an independent pagan. Guess I've been that way for about 13 or so years.

I don't follow the teachings or practices of any particular person or organization. Overall, I'm quite adverse to organized religion, as it can give rise to many of the same problems that we simple humans deal with any time we congregate... things like hypocrisy, snobbery, jealousy, or power struggles.

My spirituality is intensely personal. I do, however enjoy talking to those with similar or dissenting views when the mood stikes me. Any open-minded individual who enjoys talking philosophy, spirituality, or the like is always fun to chat with.

I consider my religious training to be a life long pursuit, wherein I hope to learn from the people, places, & events which fill this existence. I've built a considerable library of pagan and ancient studies. I would especially love to chat with someone who is familiar with the study of demonology as it relates to Judaism.

I used to teach latin & mythology at Laurel H.S. & can bore you to tears with crap about dead Greeks & Romans. ;)
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Postby Shadow » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:59 pm

M A G I C K!!!

Magic is what Doug Henning and David Coperfield do.


I have been a practicing Witch for over 20 years. I am an Amazon and my patron diety is Artemis. I also have Shaman influences as well. I read Tarot and to pat myself on the back, am damn good at it. I would be happy to discuss MAGICK with any that would like my opinions, but be warned, I am passionate about my religion and will be brutally honest in all I say. Well, I guess I am always honest to the point of brutality.

Anyway. Merry Meet and Blessed Be to all.
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Postby celticsmith » Sun Sep 28, 2003 1:38 pm

Nexxus23 wrote:I guess as an introduction...

I'm a neo-pantheistic agnostic atheist and a practicing Witch of 10 years (give or take a year...).

Now the run-down...

Neo-pantheism- the belief that if there is a god/dess, it would be the combination of all things, all places, all truths, all times, altogether.

Agnostic- I logically cannot believe or disbelieve in deities.

Atheist- Some deities (logically) do not exist (YHWH, for example).

I practice an amalgam of Witchcrafts, philosophically based in Cabot's American style, but with tinges of other traditions. There's really no term for it. IMO, what works, works. :mrgreen:




This makes my head hurt.

Much like Radical Fundamentalist Christian Pagan.
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Postby Nexxus23 » Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:01 pm

Jeez, I'm sorry, CS. I'll dumb it down for ya next time, OK? :lol:
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Postby Noise » Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:14 pm

Mother Mo wrote:I'm an independent pagan. Guess I've been that way for about 13 or so years.

I don't follow the teachings or practices of any particular person or organization. Overall, I'm quite adverse to organized religion, as it can give rise to many of the same problems that we simple humans deal with any time we congregate... things like hypocrisy, snobbery, jealousy, or power struggles.

My spirituality is intensely personal. I do, however enjoy talking to those with similar or dissenting views when the mood stikes me. Any open-minded individual who enjoys talking philosophy, spirituality, or the like is always fun to chat with.

I consider my religious training to be a life long pursuit, wherein I hope to learn from the people, places, & events which fill this existence. I've built a considerable library of pagan and ancient studies. I would especially love to chat with someone who is familiar with the study of demonology as it relates to Judaism.

I used to teach latin & mythology at Laurel H.S. & can bore you to tears with crap about dead Greeks & Romans. ;)


yeah!!! good for you! I'm glad you see why there are problems with organization of these matters. Most of it IS a power hungry attempt at self worth by a select few of individuals who have fallen severely from their paths.

Any one ever hear of Seth? If not you should really check up on it. Very interesting indeed. Most of my thoughts spawned from the teachings of Seth. Only because they were thoughts that were clearly formulated by Seth and it honestly did help me understand things better. Any one interested in these matters should definately give his work some review.

My concentration of thought and energy has been in other individuals who express their thoughts on alternate realities and spirituality in the public eye. I see a great campaign that has been ongoing for the better part of a couple thousand years. I am highly interested in public fate and the "evolutionary" goal of humanity. I can tell you that there are those in the world today who are indeed making movements towards a new civilization. All the evidence is there, just takes some thought and connection to see it all. If you have any idea of what Im talking about say something. It would be nice to meet others who concentrate on these parts of spirituality. Of course, I am also interested in the thoughts of other areas of these matters as expressed by people here. Learning is what its all about isnt it?
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Postby pryjmaty » Sun Sep 28, 2003 10:01 pm

I have lost my faith in any and all.
I'm Jewish. I don't work out. If god had wanted us to bend over, she would have put diamonds on the floor.
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Postby Noise » Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:09 am

Its hard to lose... you can never really go back.
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Postby celticsmith » Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:12 am

Nexxus23 wrote:Jeez, I'm sorry, CS. I'll dumb it down for ya next time, OK? :lol:



Well, I was hung over at the time I wrote that....but I am certain that has no bearing.
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Postby junkie christ » Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:36 am

sigh
ive already posted my answer to this thread twice. im not doing it three times.
O(+>
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Postby The Stormstress » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:47 am

Noise wrote:My concentration of thought and energy has been in other individuals who express their thoughts on alternate realities and spirituality in the public eye. I see a great campaign that has been ongoing for the better part of a couple thousand years. I am highly interested in public fate and the "evolutionary" goal of humanity. I can tell you that there are those in the world today who are indeed making movements towards a new civilization. All the evidence is there, just takes some thought and connection to see it all. If you have any idea of what Im talking about say something. It would be nice to meet others who concentrate on these parts of spirituality. Of course, I am also interested in the thoughts of other areas of these matters as expressed by people here. Learning is what its all about isnt it?


Somewhat related, on a scientific/spiritual level, is "Awakening To Zero Point: The Collective Initiation" by Gregg Braden (available at Barnes & Noble) book & vid. I highly recommend it! While it haz spiritual applicationz, it also details many actual world changez... plate tectonics, polar shiftz, electro-magnetic fields,... with scientific research.
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Postby celticsmith » Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:38 pm

I think I will jump over to this mirror universe thread.


Here is one of my favorite articles on this subject of whether Wicca is Celtic or not..It is kinda long though:


Why Wicca Is Not Celtic v.3.2
by Iain MacAnTsaoir and Dawn O'Laoghaire
The following is by no means an indictment of the religion called Wicca. Wicca is indeed a valid and powerful path for those who truthfully walk it and understand it. However, there is a body of people who believe that Wicca is the descendant of the religious ways of the Gaelic or other Celtic peoples (or 'Celts' as a general nomenclature). This simply is not the case.

The following is a brief comparison of the Wiccan religion and Celtic religion. The purpose of this exercise is to dispel the notion that Wicca is Celtic, or derived from Celtic religion. It is by no means to be taken as an in depth survey of either religion. There are a great many questions that could be answered for people if they would visit with the elderly people in the rural areas of the Old Countries, or at least read books written by solid academians instead of profit oriented, new age writers. We will place at the end of this article the sources that can be used to substantiate what is said herein. I encourage you to investigate each source given, to check the veracity of the statement for yourselves.

When we talk about Celtic religion, we must define what we are talking about. Precisely put, we are talking about religious beliefs, practices and worldviews that existed in Gaelic and other Celtic cultures, as these developed as natural manifestations within the cultures. While this would include Celtic Christianity, for this article we are addressing Classical (pagan) Celtic theology. The pagan methodology and understandings of Gaelic spirituality survived the coming of Christianity and have continued to this day within the ways of people who are by and large nominally Christian. This is however, where Gaelic Traditionalists, both pagan and Christian, look when establishing their beliefs and methodologies.

An example of what existed in Classical times, when compared with what began afterward, is the use of the Maypole. Prior to importation by Germanic invaders, the Maypole was not in use in Gaelic lands. The High Days, which were fire festivals, saw people gather at the local river to make votive (in an anthropological sense) offerings, as well as light bonfires on the hilltops. It wasn't until the coming of the Saxon that the Maypole came to Gaelic lands, and even then the use of the Maypole stayed in the areas where there was a Germanic population, and was not adopted by the indigenous Gaels.

The spirituality of the various Celtic peoples has not changed. The Gaelic peoples still recognize that there are spirits of the Sky, the Sea and the Land (X). It is only in their official methodologies concerning the Upper Realm that concepts and methodologies have changed. The Three of Power can still be found in prayers and incantations such as recorded by Alexander Carmichael at the early part of the 20th century. Yet there are a great many who claim that things that have never been a part of the Celtic paradigm are Celtic. Wicca seems to be a religion that is particularly prone to this. The people who make the statement that Wicca is Celtic are usually of two sorts. These are the new people who either for their own reasons truly believe this to be the case, or they have fallen prey to some unscrupulous teacher who uses the allure of things "Celtic" to draw in new students or ensure profits. In both cases the problem is exacerbated by the fact that solid information is not easily accessible to the general public. The people who fall for the antics of the unscrupulous teacher usually do not have access to the information it takes to refute the falsehood. All religions have these types, and the fact that these will also exist within Wicca should not serve as a reason to condemn that path.

People who, with utter conviction, state that Wicca is a Celtic path usually have derived this idea by one of two common arguments (taking for granted that they haven't been misinformed). The first is conveyed by the person stating something to the effect of, "... _____ (usually Gardner is named) drew upon Celtic lore when putting it together... ." The second statement used is, "...it just *is* Celtic, it's always been Celtic, it's always been in places like Ireland and Scotland." Both of these arguments are easily disproved. The following shall go toward that end.

Traditional Celtic religions, as is the case with all religions, are cultural manifestations. In tribal cultures the people's spirituality is part of their identity and worldview. Gaelic Traditionalism, for example, holds within the Gaelic culture. This just as a Traditionalist Lakota would remain faithful to their culture.
In the Gaelic experience, though regional variants of the name would exist, the Mother of the Gods is Danu, and her mate is Bile. From that union came Dagda and Bride, who themselves are described in some articles of lore as mates. From texts and folklore we see that the Gods were born of that union. The Gods are the First Ancestors of the people, and are individuals. Scholars have noted that when Celtic culture entered an area, the Celtic gods of the Upper Realm went in with them. These then intermarried with the local goddesses of the land (the goddesses of sovereignty). Extant geneaological texts chart how the ancient Gael believed that they originated with those unions. Hence, the very Gods of the people are their First Ancestors.

The various ideas surrounding the ancestors manifest in a host of customs, such as the Feast of the Dead. Also, such concepts as that of the dead reincarnating through blood lines, in conjunction with the customs of the Gaelic peoples, provide a sense of continuity and identity that cannot be missed.

Just as Traditionalists hold steadfastly to their own culture, Wicca tends to draw from various cultures and ideologies. What allows the practitioners of Wicca to put elements from various religions together is the modernist ideology that has at its root the Jungian concept of archetypes. Wiccans tend to work heavily in the idea of archetypes -- "All goddesses are the face of the Goddess". They focus on the traits which various deities share, much the same way a Jungian would focus on the shared traits of heroes in a Jungian analysis. Wiccans also speak heavily on the subject of masculine and feminine dualities (anima and animus), which are central to Jungian theories of personality. Some Wiccans focus on claiming the shadow side, or "dark" side of individuals, which is a straight lift from Jungian theory.

The concepts that are traditionally part of Celtic religions reject this type of analysis and state that the Gods are individuals. Furthermore, as stated, traditional Celtic beliefs hold that the Gods are tied to the people by familial links. As an example, a Gaelic Traditionalist might agree that your mom and their mom (or your tribe's Mother Goddess and their tribe's Mother Goddess) share some traits by virtue of both people being moms. However, it is a mistake to say that just because both people are moms, that they are interchangeable. To the perspective of a Gael, the basic fallacy of extending Jungian analysis too far is this - your mom isn't their mom, no matter how mom-like both people are. Needless to say, one can't hold an archetype relationship to either the God or the Goddess and a direct and intimate personal relationship to your people's gods at the same time. The two ideas contradict each other.

Another of the signs telling of the Jungian foundation in Wicca is the propensity to constantly 'borrow' concepts, icons and sacred relics from other cultures and their religions. This causes a great deal of friction to exist between people of other cultures and Wiccans. This friction manifests itself in such passive things as traditional peoples separating themselves and establishing communities aside from the general pagan one. It also manifests in such things as the literal Lakota Declaration of War against those who "steal" (words the spiritual leaders of that People used) that culture's spirituality. The unanimous opinion of the people in the various traditional forms of spirituality is that Wicca and Wiccans spend too much time "borrowing" everything under the sun and throwing it all together. Yet, to be fair, from Wicca's archetypal-based viewpoint, that's both okay and logical.
From a traditional Gaelic viewpoint, and traditionalists of other cultures say the same things, these practices dishonor the ancestors, distort the fundamental truth ("your mom ain't my mom"), and interfere with the duty that traditional people generally feel to preserve and restore traditional cultures. This is because, to them, Wicca creates a distraction that sidetracks people looking for the traditional ways, as well as sucks up the time, interest and energy of people who might otherwise be helping to find ways to preserve their culture. Wiccans also often present themselves as the "true" Celtic religion, thus preventing some people from ever finding their way back to the path of the ancestors, which would, in the view of a traditional person, honor the gods properly (meaning, as individuals and as the 'First Ancestors'). What most traditionalists find deplorable is that many Wiccans embrace the misinformation regardless of fact and refuse to deal with conflicting ideas or views when faced with facts.

Having established the Jungian foundation that allows for misinformation to remain unchecked in the Wiccan community, let's start dispelling some of the fallacious notions that exist. The first notion to be addressed is, 'Wicca is what the Celts of old practiced.' Toward dispelling this idea, let's state some things that are fairly well established as fact because of the preponderance of evidence.
The first is that modern neo-paganism is highly impacted by, and reflective of, Gardnerian Wicca and its derivatives. The second is that, when Gardner was putting his creation together he drew upon Eastern philosophies, Egyptian ideologies and Judaic ceremonialism, in addition to Celtic lore.

This easily becomes confusing, but when something is made up of components, the whole mechanism is not solely of any one of those components. To state such denotes a severely faulty argument. Let me demonstrate this. For a great many years American Motors Corporation (AMC) put out a whole line of automobiles. These automobiles very often had Chrysler engines, Ford transmissions, Chrysler brakes, Ford seats and, I believe in one instance, even General Motors instrumentation. All of those components, motors, transmissions, seats, etc, were fixed into a body made by AMC. Yet the complete car wasn't a Ford because it had a Ford engine, nor was it a Chrysler because it had their transmission. It was an AMC, a creature all its own. The same is true about Wicca. It has a Hindu engine, an Egyptian torque converter and a Celtic transmission. These things were set in a ceremonial body that, while reflective of the bodies used by the Hermetic Orders, is Wiccan alone. It is a creature unto itself.

Concerning the second argument they use, I direct your attention at two areas. These two areas will suffice nicely in dispelling the false notion that Wicca just *IS* Celtic. The first area is the theology of the two systems.

The two systems, Wicca and Celtic, and in particular Gaelic, contradict each other on several points. These contradictions are enough, as a whole, to form a severe dissonance between the two religions. In Celtic religion, there are three basic spheres. These are the Sky, the Sea and the Land. Each of these has a ruling body. For the Sky, the Sun, for the Sea, the Moon and for the Land, the Earth.

By careful study of the ancient texts, as well as the language itself, we see that the Sun and the Moon are feminine. They are sisters to each other. Though, in some lore, there are traces of evidence that some people believed that, while the Sun was feminine, the Moon was masculine. In Gaidhlig the names of both luminaries are feminine, and in invocations and spells they are both addressed as feminine beings. Yet they can change gender according to which of their attributes is brought to the fore. The nurturing, warm Sun who promotes growth is feminine, the light, as personified by Lugh, is masculine, and the scorching Sun just before Harvest is represented by Balor. This contrasts sharply with Wicca, which is based wholly on a Feminine Moon and Masculine Sun.

Wicca is a religion whose philosophical foundation is Neo-Platonic dualism with a Goddess and a God as archetypes. Not only is Celtic religion vastly different in that it is truly polytheistic, totemistic, animistic, and zoomorphic, but the very processes of reason upon which the whole of the Celtic worldview is based is founded on a tripartite cosmology. In Celtic understanding the world has three independent and free spheres, Sky, Land and Sea. The three realms are both the legs of the cauldron of the world, as well as the three parts of the Tree of the World.

The next area of difference regards ethics. The basic ethical statement of Wicca is called 'the Rede.' The Wiccan rede states, "An It Harm None, Do As Ye Wilt." The nature of the Rede is untenable to Celts. The whole morality of Wicca is "harm none". While it is a theoretical statement, it is one with little real life practice. This is because it's a rule that must be broken just to survive and, as a result, leaves interpretation and application to individuals, and common sense, isn't.

Such statements as are typical of the Rede are not a part of the Celtic paradigm, in which we find a heroic morality. In real life, the term "harm none" is typified by the moralities of Wicca, Christianity, and others where the primary imperative is to not hurt others. Heroic is typified by the Celtic and Norse religions primarily, though other examples exist. Heroic morality is summed up by the Gaelic hero Caelte as, "truth in our hearts, strength in our arms and fulfillment in our tongues". Heroic morality is rooted in concepts of personal honor, responsibility and fulfillment of duty. These are all traits of the Heroic morality, but like the Tao, it is an intangible concept that cannot truly be adequately defined.

Because Wicca and traditional Gaelic spirituality arise out of different analytical perspectives, their moralities -- the "scripts" they create for their adherents -- are radically different. Wicca is a religion that is based on a logical extension of Jungian analysis (and yes, Jung was big into religion) -- thus its sole ethic "Harm none and do what thou wilt" tends to reflect a personal, individualistic practice. Traditionalist Celts living a "heroic" morality focus on heroism, personal honor, tribal honor and duty to the tribe and "Do what you wilt" is the last thing on their mind. That which honor and duty call for is at the opposite end of the spectrum from that which the individualistic bent of Wicca would call.

The vision conceived and portrayed by Wicca, of what comes after this life, is limited and vague. Celtic religion, on the other hand, has a complex and intricate conceptualization of the otherworld. In fact, OtherWorld's interaction in this world is, in many ways, the pivot point of Celtic religion.

Wicca is primarily an invocatory/ecstatic religion that revolves around special rituals. The 'formularies' used by Wicca can be traced back through the lodges of ceremonial magic, and especially the work of Alister Crowley. In Celtic religion, the tenets are votive in nature and stress ethics and morality, only secondary importance is placed on ritual. To Celts, life itself is ceremony, with every thought, word and deed being spiritually significant and magical.

The very foundation of Gaelic culture was the home. The hearth was the cornerstone of the spirituality of the people. In Gaelic religions great emphasis is placed on the sanctity of the home, and strength of the family. Families, to traditional Celtic peoples, include people who have adopted each other. The individuals are encouraged to walk in strength and to fulfill their responsibilities to their families. These components are not found in Wicca.

In Wicca, sacred space is ritually 'created.' To traditional Celtic sensibilities, both blessing the salt and not blessing the salt are superfluous arguments. This is because, to the Celtic mind, humankind can make neither the Gods, nor Their creations, any more or less perfect.
In traditionally based Celtic religions all space is sacred. The Land is the Goddess of Sovereignty, the Mother of the peoples living there, and holy unto Herself. Sacred space is omnipresent, it is the history of a place or some other distinguishing thing that causes certain places to see different religious uses. What is done at a site depends on the natural predisposition of an area or its history. That the ancestors saw things in this way is established through such literary evidence as the Dindsenchas (a book of place histories).

Related to the concepts of the land is that, the Gods that Celts took with them into a new land (Sky Gods/Gods of the People), mated with the Land Gods already in that land. Out of those unions came the oldest Gaelic families, out of which came later Gaelic families. What this means is that the Celts saw the Gods as their relatives. Hence we see one of several manifestations of ancestor veneration. Wicca has no component for venerating or developing a relationship with the ancestors, or the Goddess of the land or other land spirits of the lands in which a people live. These are big items in traditional Celtic religions.

Wicca is an initiatory mystery religion. Gaelic and other traditional Celtic religions are inclusive, with very few initiatory elements. Within Wicca there are various degrees and levels, each having its own mystery, each mystery being revealed by someone in authority. While the scope of this article is not designed to explore religious functionaries in pre-Christian Celtic cultures, in Celtic religion, the declarations of the Gods are found in the Order of Nature. The revelations are from the Gods themselves, and in general, each person with sincerity seeks to understand the natural world (which includes the "supernatural" world) around them and their place in it. There is also the concept of interacting with the natural world as co-inhabitors of the world.

As briefly touched on earlier, Wicca uses the classical elements as a fundamental concept. Celtic religions traditionally do not use the classical elements (air, fire, water and earth) in any way. Some point to the inclusions of the four mythical cities of the Tuatha De Danaan, as recounted in the Lebhar Gebhala Erenn as proof of, or a model of, the use of the elements of the later Greek elements. These folk attribute the four treasures that came from those cities as symbols for those elements. However, scholars tend to think that these may have been included as they were by Christian monks to bring things more into line with the Roman concepts as typified by the Roman Vulgate.
Some will argue that the floor plans of sacred sites support the concept of the use of directions in conjunction with the four elements. First, such associations would be speculation only. Secondly, these floor plans are of the square temples that are found primarily on the continent. This floor plan was carried over to the isles with the Romans, and is found as a part of Romano-Celtic culture. The majority of insular temples were round. Typical of this genre is the important ritual structure at Emain Macha. Archaeological diggings has shown that the site was based on five concentric rings (perhaps associated with the same five circles placed around a newborn) of oak posts, with an opening to the west. Circular sites aren't plagued with such concerns as which side faces which direction. Indeed, the sitting arrangement of the five kings at Tara, indicate an association with the directions, but these need to be addressed within the framework of the culture. This framework would be winds, or 'airts', not the four Greek elements. The airts are still to this day what are associated with the directions, as shown by some of the incantations recorded in the Highlands by Carmichael. The Greek elements were only associated with the Four Treasures in the late 1800's, by the work of the Golden Dawn, of which Yeats was a member.
If we want to address the Four Treasures, we must recognize exactly what is being stated in the texts. Of those treasures, one was the Sword of Nuada and the other the Spear of Lugh. Lugh did not come with the Tuatha De Danann when They came into Ireland. Lugh showed up later on, just prior to the second battle of Maig Tuired. According to the lore, Lugh's Spear was forged by Goibiu. In that battle Nuadh was killed, and it was after the battle that Lugh took the kingship. Hence, by seeing that Nuadh was gone, and Lugh ascended, Nuadh's solar symbol (the sword) was replaced by Lugh's solar symbol (the spear). This helps us to see that the significant number involved is 'three'.
Also as stated, in Celtic culture there are the basic spheres of Sky, Sea and Land. These three realms are three parts of the cosmology of most Indo-European peoples, and are not the equivalents of "earth, wind, fire and water" of the Hellenistic Greek world that has filtered down to the modern era through the ceremonial magical lodges.
The Sky, which is related to Fire, is the realm of the gods of culture, light/enlightenment, order, permanence, purity, and the skills (The Tuatha De Danann). The Sea, which is the realm of the watery Underworld, is associated with chaos, decay, and death through which comes renewal and rebirth (the Fomorri). Regarding water proper, it is through the sacred wells (direct conduits to OtherWorld), from the Waters of Heaven (which maintains during the rule of the truthful king), that the water which encircles the Earth, sustains and maintains the people of the Land. It is here on the Land where humans physically exist, living in contention on the 'plain of sorrow', caught betwixt the above and the below.
The closest thing to an elemental system amongst the Gaelic Celts is what are called the dhuile, as such is defined as 'elements' in Gaidhlig. These are anywhere from seven to eleven, usually nine, items. These range from sun to lightning to rock. The dhuile are a way of understanding the relationship of the person to the cosmos, with each item found in the cosmos relating to a part of the person. Wicca has nothing along these lines. In addition, the fertility nature of Wicca addresses the land Gods almost exclusively. When Gods of the other realms are named, they are usually outside of the place held for them in their traditional pantheons. In Celtic theology, each is held and venerated in their traditional capacity. As far as the directions are concerned, the overwhelming evidence shows that in traditional celtic religion, the directions have always been associated with the winds. Not only is evidence found in texts which record folklore and custom, such as the Carmina Gadelica, but also in texts far more ancient such as the Senchus Mor, the Saltair Na Ran, and the Hibernica Minora. (X)

Wicca places little emphasis on mythology. Yet in Celtic religion, mythological stories are a central feature. These, in fact, form the core of magical practice, teaching and what ritual exists (manifested commonly in 'passion plays'). In Wicca there is no clear teaching of what is required to break past the cycles of rebirth. In fact, within Wicca there is no such concept at all. Yet in Celtic religion, the requirement can be clearly and concisely stated. To fulfill one's duty, to always be honorable and to stand for the truth come what may, while understanding *why* what is honorable is considered so. Students of Aristotle can clearly see the concepts of "personal excellence" within materials from various celtic cultures.

Wicca is a relatively recent addition to the religious paths of humanity. There is a lot of mis-information bandied about regarding it. It is sad that a great many of its followers have to do the religion such a disservice by claiming a lineage that doesn't exist. I would point out the now tired joke about Wiccan grand mums. Celts tend to discount initiation, or any other device through which validity is gained through some person or agency. To a Celt, that one exists is proof of their validity. The only generally recognized 'initiations' are those afforded by the process of life itself, with the two most important being birth and death, with marriage, parenthood and grand-parenthood coming along in a close second place.

Some well known writers have claimed a great antiquity for Wicca. Yet, if it has any age to it at all, then it is through the Wicce, which were Saxon in origin, and patriarchal from the start. These are thought to have been members of the Lodges of Cunning Men. They have nothing to do with the mythological Druids (a product of the British Revival effort of the 18th century). The Wicce have even less to do with the historical Draoi. Such histories, as have connected the two groups of people, are in fact pseudo-histories, or as Margot Adler calls such ideas in her book, Drawing Down The Moon, "myths".

These same writers state that the word Wicca derives from the Saxon word, Witan. However, the Witan was the proto-parliament of old Saxon England. If one wishes to twist etymology in this way, it would be more correct to trace the word witch, back to the word 'wicga', which is Old English for the insect known as the earwig, and which literally means "creepy-crawly".

These same writers state that Wicca was practiced in the Celtic lands, and specifically name Gaelic lands, where these practices were supposedly called "Witta". Yet, from the Gaelic language itself we can see the truth that Wicca is not descended from the Gaelic Celts. The simplicity of this fact is seen in that that there isn't even a 'W ' in the Gaelic language, so neither Wicca nor Witta as a derivation could be Gaelic. As concerns the Gaelic language, the sound [w] does exist in Gaelic, or at least in Old Irish, as a lenited /m/ or /b/, like the [w] in the current pronunciation of Samhain [sawhIn - that's a capital I]. But that never occurs at the beginning of a word. Even in Gaidhlig (Scots Gaelic) the sound is rather like a "wide mouthed 'V' sound" [as in Samhain - SHA-vin].

In technical speak the 'w' does not exist in the language, nor is [w] ever its own phoneme, just an allophone of /m/ or /b/ (depending on the word). Since lenition is rare at the beginning of a word though, it is extraordinarily unlikely that any native Gaelic word would have a [w] at the beginning, and thus 'Wicca' is practically impossible in Gaelic even transliterated into the Roman alphabet.

Likewise, a similar argument exists to show that Wicca did not descend from the Welsh (the representative of the P-Celt branch of the linguistic family). While the alphabet character 'W' does exist in the Welsh language, it does not express the same sound as the English 'W' (white, wig, Wicca, Witta). Instead, within Welsh language, the 'W' expresses the "oo" sound. Thus, within the Welsh the letter W can be pronounced either as found in the English "put" (short) or "soon" (long); or the Welsh "twp" (short) and "rhwd" (long).

The truth is that modern Wicca, as it is most commonly practiced, is a fairly modern construction, dating from the middle part of this century. This was best summed up by Dr. Marilyn Wells, PhD, Anthropology Department, Middle Tennessee State University, who has referred to modern Wiccans as Neo-Wiccans. In other words, there is little to no connection between Gardner's creation and the Wicce of the middle ages, and no connection to the Celts; except for what modern Wiccans have borrowed and incorporated. As a matter of fact, if the veracity of The Pickengill Papers is complete, as many Gardnerians have vouched, then the Lodges of Saxon Cunning Men stood in the place of adversary to the Celtic Wise Women, which also goes to support this essay.

More evidence supporting this can be found in a body of religious laws called the "Law of the Craft". While there are a great number of groups operating who do not use the set of laws that Gardner wrote, these do, however, usually use some derivation. "The Law of the Craft" as it was created by Gardner, and forwarded by a great many people who received it from their grandmothers (a bit of humor), at the least shows the attitude present in the creators of this religion. The undertones still reverberate. There are printed copies of this body to be found in the public domain, in such books as Lady Sheba's Grimoire and The King of the Witches by June Johns. There is also to be found on the Internet, a work comparing several versions of that body of law. There are three items of note, where that law is concerned. They are:

#1 The uniform appellation given to modern Wicca, as a "brotherhood."
#2 The quote,"... as a man loveth a woman by mastering her...".
#3 The quote,"...let her(the high priestess)ever mind that all power is lent...from him(the priest)..." (Her power is absolute in Circle only, and even then lent from the Him [the priest figure])

-parentheses added by author-

All three of these items fly in the face of how women were viewed by pre-Roman Gaelic people. Even the Wiccan law demanding that mature, experienced priestesses step aside for someone younger, soley because of youth, should raise questions as to the motives of the author of these laws. It should also raise questions about their foundation in tradition. The fact is, our ancestor's views towards women were quite progressive for the times, and were close to being on par with modern views. Much to the chagrin of other powers of the time, namely the Romans, women had the right to possess and disburse property. They possessed the right to inheritance, and to chose their mates. They possessed ascendancy to the throne, in some places, above the right of men to do so. They possessed the right to keep and bear weapons, and let it be noted that subjagating an armed populace is indeed a difficult thing to do. It was not until Christianity was firmly implanted that women lost these rights, and the equality of the law concerning women came into question.

An argument can be made by Wiccans that their religion has evolved since Gardner created it. That however only shows more conclusively how far removed Wicca is from anything Celtic. Yet the point must be made that as much of Gardners laws involve liturgy and ritual format, as long as those things are found in Wicca, then even those groups that have put aside Gardners laws are still abiding by them by default.

Other corollary evidence comes from Wiccan statements about themselves. Of the Druids, all that can be agreed upon, based on evidence, was that they were intimately involved in sacrifices. Yet, many Wiccans state that they "..are the priestcraft for the pagan people...". They are even "training clergy". Yet, within Gaelic/Celtic culture all people were considered capable of, and responsible for, the mediation of the Gods on their own behalf. Celtic regard for personal responsibility is amply abundant. This is particularly true as regards to mediating the Gods on ones own behalf, and is so obvious and well known that even pop culture books such as The Celtic Tradition by Caitlin Matthews tell of this truth. This has even been commented on by respected celtophiles such as Peter Berresford-Ellis as being a part of the mindset of the Gaels unto this day.

Even the Triads of our people show where the redactor's hands slipped on occasion, and let go expressions of the feeling among our forebears, that kept priests were an abomination. The idea was, evidently, that the first place we give up our personal power over our lives is to priestcrafts. From there on out, it is one piece of our lives at a time, until we are veritable slaves. Slavery is not a position taken with grace by our people.
This is not to deny the fact that certainly after the coming of Christianity, and probably before, that there were probably orders of Monks dedicated to the service of one or a number of deities. This is only to say that just as there were not temples of the Greek and Roman type, neither were there sacredotes or "clergy", whose functions were to mediate and/or intercede with the Gods on the behalf of other people. The sacrifices that these officiated over were not to appease angry deities. Indo-European sacrifices were for the renewal of the world, which itself according to Indo-European thought was created from the primordial sacrifice of a deity.
In fact, traditional celtic religion was votive/sacrificial in nature. Concepts of votive offerings and world renewing sacrifice, though central to Celtic religion, have no position in Wicca.

When I was asked to write this essay, I was also asked to keep it as short as possible, yet not neglecting thoroughness. This should be enough though, to establish the premise quite securely, that Wicca is not descended form our Gaelic/Celtic ancestors.

Special Thanks To:
Lugaid MacRobert
Marcus Harris
Stephanie Williams
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A: The Jolly Raja
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Postby Nexxus23 » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:59 pm

:shock: *looks around*

Did I miss something? Who said Wicca was Celtic? There's no way Wicca's traditionally Celtic, or traditionally anything. It's too young.
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Postby junkie christ » Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:38 pm

wicca is as celtic as basketweaving is fun to a crackhead.
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Postby Noise » Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:03 am

junkie christ wrote:wicca is as celtic as basketweaving is fun to a crackhead.


you have problems junkie ... you have problems.






















What Im really trying to say is.,,, I wish I had thought of that comparison. Props... keep up the good work pal.
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Postby Guest » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:49 am

I'm still of th' inklingz that all pathz r 1 & all pathz r sacred.

While I hav actively sought (& still do) 2 learn about many traditionz/belief structurez (from orthodox 2 totally lax) from both bookz & thoze around me (& still find them 2 b excellent referencez/resourcez), I find it 2 b a purely personal spiritual matter.

... If it workz 4 u, then go with it ... an exercise n free will!

My own fairly eclectic heritage givez me a basic respect 4 the beauty of diversity ... I prefer 2 think of faith n termz of "spirituality" rather than "religion" (& follow more of a "path" than a "doctrine"), becauze crossing that boundary seemz 2 inevitably infringe on the rightz & livez o' otherz (Holy Warz & Campaignz, The Witch Trialz,.........). So, obviously, I do put a bit of credence n2 the science of cauze & effect (Newton'z Lawz) ...a.k.a. "karma".

2 me, God/Goddess iz the purest paradox, every...thing/where/1, no...thing/where/1, positive & negative, masculine & feminine, within & without,...
IMO, All dietiez r "empowered" by the faith/energy focused n2 them by their followerz, much az the followerz r "empowered" by their faith n the dietiez... an infinite exchange. And nterestingly, just az 1 faith/tradition fadez... there iz ever another 2 take it'z place. Why not take what lessonz u can from every source available; yet forge ur own path... ?! Destination unknown?

"The Road Not Taken

2 roadz diverged n a yellow wood
& b 1 traveler, long I stood
& looked down 1 az far az I could
2 where it bent n the undergrowth

Then took the other az just az fair
& having perhapz the better claim
B'cauz it waz grassy & wanted wear
Tho, az 4 that, the passing there
Had worn them really about the same

& both that morning equally lay
N leavez no step had trodden black
Oh, I kept the 1st 4 another day!
Yet, knowing how way leadz n2 way
I doubted if I sould ever cum back

I shall b telling this with a sigh
Sumwhere agez & agez hence
2 roadz diverged n a wood
& I took the one less traveled by
& that haz made all the difference" --- Robert Frost
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Postby Nexxus23 » Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:49 am

:imwithstupid:


Stormstress, dear, was that you, or someone else?

Good point, btw.
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