An overly lengthy discussion of the KnoxGothic camera policy

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Postby Caustic » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:21 pm

Ray+Wendy wrote:And, at the risk of pissing someone off, there was no need to hijack the thread to the music.


Yes, how dare I question me as to why I don't attend Sanctus. I am a bad, bad man. Shame on me.
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Postby Bone » Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:03 pm

mafiaman wrote:
DarkVader wrote: Why not just offer free legal assistance to those members of KG or those attending Sanctus who have been wronged by the previous camera policy without resorting to taking their copyright without compensation?

Providing free legal assitance for problems which arise on KG or during a KG related event would definitely be more in line with "Supporting the scene" then taking someones copyright without due compensation.


Well if you or others in the community want to donate a few thousand dollars to a legal defense fund that "might" be a possibility. If there is a lawyer in the community who would be willing to donate time for such an issue that "might" be a possibility. Sanctus nor KG make anything even resembling an income that could even conceive this option. While I have a few people I can go to with legal questions, KG does not have money to donate free legal help.

Some of you I believe are mistakenly under the impression that KG makes ass-o-loads of money. The only income that KG gets is cover from the Sanctus and other Related events. From that money we have to pay for club rental, bandwidth for KG, KG server maintenance and upgrades, Pay out to DJs, sound/light equipment maintenance and up grades, advertising expenses, Etc Etc Etc.
KG does not require any payment for usage of this website, nor do we exclude anyone so long as they behave within limitations of the forum rules.
Now let me add to the fact that Vader Arkady and Myself each spend LONG HOURS of our own time promoting events & the community, working on KGs website and the forum, forum moderation, flyer designs, and much more involved with this whole venture. In the end last month each of us made at the end of Sanctus less than $1 per hour for the work we put in. Why do we do it then? We do it outta love for the music, as well as the community and what it represents. None of us have delusions of becoming rich off this stuff. If we were looking to get rich off it we would be spending our time running a hip-hop/pop forum/club night. Due to the shear size of what we have created we do have to run KG like a business to keep the KG machine's wheels turning. That means sometimes having to do some things that are unpopular with some members of the community. But we try to do what's best for the community at large, not the few individuals. This takes into account forum rules, music at club nights, and policies at said club nights.
We don't force anyone to attend Sanctus,we don't make people take pictures, we don't hold a gun to anyones head and make them to post on KG. People come because they want to, and we try to make an environment they want to keep coming back to. As Sanctus and KG are going into year 4 now and thriving, I feel we have been on the right track.
We are not all things to all people, but then again no one can be.

We have said time and time again why we are doing what we are doing with camera policy. I will not go over it again. Copyright ownership issue is not going to change at this point. IF you have a problem with it don't bring a camera.
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Postby Ray+Wendy » Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:07 pm

I wanted to quote the former post from mafiaman, but it was a bit too long.

If KG wants to use my stuff for advertising, then good. If it were some billion dollar corporation, it would be different. As far as I know no one here has thousands of dollars to throw around every time an event comes up.

What it boils down to is the scene. Everyone looks out for everyone else. The people at Sanctus are trying to prevent asshats from taking advantage of those who come out for a good time. Now the feeling on this thread is that they (Sanctus) are the asshats, which is not the case. If you want to hug your camera, jump up and down and yell "mine" repeatedly, go for it. I think they have at least gotten a good start on fixing the problem. Until something better comes along, I would sign the paper.

But the minute Bone or Vader wins the lottery, I want a cut! :twisted:
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Postby Bone » Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:14 pm

Ray+Wendy wrote:I wanted to quote the former post from mafiaman, but it was a bit too long.

If KG wants to use my stuff for advertising, then good. If it were some billion dollar corporation, it would be different. As far as I know no one here has thousands of dollars to throw around every time an event comes up.

What it boils down to is the scene. Everyone looks out for everyone else. The people at Sanctus are trying to prevent asshats from taking advantage of those who come out for a good time. Now the feeling on this thread is that they (Sanctus) are the asshats, which is not the case. If you want to hug your camera, jump up and down and yell "mine" repeatedly, go for it. I think they have at least gotten a good start on fixing the problem. Until something better comes along, I would sign the paper.

But the minute Bone or Vader wins the lottery, I want a cut! :twisted:


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Postby mafiaman » Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:11 pm

Bone wrote: Well if you or others in the community want to donate a few thousand dollars to a legal defense fund that "might" be a possibility.

Hey now, lets not get our panties in a twist here. I'm not the one asking to take people's copyright without compensating them.

Bone wrote:
That means sometimes having to do some things that are unpopular with some members of the community.

So far as I've been able to tell, nobody likes the idea of KG taking their copyright from them.

Bone wrote:

But we try to do what's best for the community at large, not the few individuals.

Does this include things that happened in the past, like creating competition with another goth web site in Knoxville when there wasn't any? Like sabotaging their attempt to also do a gothic dance night in Knoxville by claiming on a flyer posted to this website that The End had been cancelled?

Bone wrote:
People come because they want to, and we try to make an environment they want to keep coming back to.

And you succeed, dear. By my agnostic God, I always come here when I want to get a false felony accusation slapped on me from a dance night that you, Bone, were running. Good supporting the scene on that one.


Bone wrote:
We have said time and time again why we are doing what we are doing with camera policy. I will not go over it again. Copyright ownership issue is not going to change at this point. IF you have a problem with it don't bring a camera.


The mighty have spoken! How dare you question our authority! We'll take either your copyright or your camera! Or else we won't let you shake your booty to The Safety Dance!

No mention of how to protect the ones who give up their copyright from KG profiteering with that copyright.

If this is how you treat those who "support the scene", then why should people attend Sanctus?
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Postby mafiaman » Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:31 pm

Ray+Wendy wrote: I wanted to quote the former post from mafiaman, but it was a bit too long.


Damn, sorry about that. Next time I'll make sure to include cliff's notes for you people.

Ray+Wendy wrote:If KG wants to use my stuff for advertising, then good. If it were some billion dollar corporation, it would be different.



If KG wants to use my stuff for advertising without giving me some compensation for my stuff (stuff = intellectual property), then bad. If it were some billion dollar corporation, it would be different in that the billion dollar corporation would at least offer to pay for the copyright being taken and have verbage in the contract saying how that copyright would be used.

Ray+Wendy wrote:
What it boils down to is the scene. Everyone looks out for everyone else.



Which is why I am posting here on this thread, because giving up your copyright without adequite legal protection in regards to how that copyright is used could end you up in a world of crap.

Ray+Wendy wrote:
Now the feeling on this thread is that they (Sanctus) are the asshats, which is not the case.


In Your Humble Opinion.
The jury is still out on this one for those of us who live here.

Ray+Wendy wrote:
If you want to hug your camera, jump up and down and yell "mine" repeatedly, go for it.


Well, not exactly. I want to hug my COPYRIGHT , jump up and down and yell "mine" repeatedly.


Now, as promised, the cliff's notes for this post:

Giving away copyright = bad!
Especially for a club night.
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Postby Ray+Wendy » Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:54 pm

mafiaman wrote:
Ray+Wendy wrote: I wanted to quote the former post from mafiaman, but it was a bit too long.


Damn, sorry about that. Next time I'll make sure to include cliff's notes for you people.

Ray+Wendy wrote:If KG wants to use my stuff for advertising, then good. If it were some billion dollar corporation, it would be different.



If KG wants to use my stuff for advertising without giving me some compensation for my stuff (stuff = intellectual property), then bad. If it were some billion dollar corporation, it would be different in that the billion dollar corporation would at least offer to pay for the copyright being taken and have verbage in the contract saying how that copyright would be used.

Ray+Wendy wrote:
What it boils down to is the scene. Everyone looks out for everyone else.



Which is why I am posting here on this thread, because giving up your copyright without adequite legal protection in regards to how that copyright is used could end you up in a world of crap.

Ray+Wendy wrote:
Now the feeling on this thread is that they (Sanctus) are the asshats, which is not the case.


In Your Humble Opinion.
The jury is still out on this one for those of us who live here.

Ray+Wendy wrote:
If you want to hug your camera, jump up and down and yell "mine" repeatedly, go for it.


Well, not exactly. I want to hug my COPYRIGHT , jump up and down and yell "mine" repeatedly.


Now, as promised, the cliff's notes for this post:

Giving away copyright = bad!
Especially for a club night.

DJ Bone has guested several times out here and I have enjoyed his work, so I am not entirely unfamiliar with your scene.

Oh, and make sure to hold on to that ring as you fall in the lava, Mr Gollum.
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Postby JaNell » Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:59 pm

Oh look, the same old same old are trying to pick a fight on KG (again) trying to make Vader/Bone/Arkady will look like Fascists.
There MUST be a new dance night or board in the works or something.
:lol:

And before you call ME an ass kisser, feel free to refer back to my blog entry where I expressed myself pretty clearly about that "The End is cancelled" BS. I told Arkday & Bone to get a backbone and rein Vader in...
Funny, I'm still a mod here and I still get asked to work the door at Sanctus. They must not be very efficient as Fascists, I guess...
:roll:
Last edited by JaNell on Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sir Diddimus » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:05 pm

Apparently nobody pays any attention, but the camera operators can sign over their copyrights all day. It still does not trump the rights of the individual. That is the Tennessee Law!

End of story.

Further arguing and childishness will be ignored!




If you'd like to look up the law, you may find it here....
Tennessee Code : TITLE 47 COMMERCIAL INSTRUMENTS AND TRANSACTIONS : CHAPTER 25 TRADE PRACTICES : PART 11 PROTECTION OF PERSONAL RIGHTS
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Postby JaNell » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:13 pm

Sir Diddimus wrote:Apparently nobody pays any attention


The point, as always, is just to make KG look bad so everybody will support some new project of theirs.
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With all due respect.

Postby cariephoto » Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:27 pm

With all due respect, I think this issue has been run into the ground. Let's all move on to more positive and productive conversation. Also, if you are gonna "LOCK" my post about the photography law, then why not lock this board...It only seems fair to me. Besides, I am getting tired of all the restlessness.
Let's all just agree not to agree.
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Postby Mother Mo » Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:45 pm

Conspiracy theories & hurt feelings... makes for interesting reading for a while, but then it just gets old. The options have been made abundantly clear. Maybe along with that free legal fund fantasy, we should work on one for therapy sessions for some of these folks. :roll:

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Postby JaNell » Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:53 pm

Mother Mo wrote:Conspiracy theories & hurt feelings... makes for interesting reading for a while, but then it just gets old. The options have been made abundantly clear. Maybe along with that free legal fund fantasy, we should work on one for therapy sessions for some of these folks. :roll:

Wake me the windmill jousting is over.


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Maybe we could sell photos from Sanctus to go towards a therapy fund?
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Postby mafiaman » Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:46 am

Still haven't seen any part of the contract that camera carrying attendees of Sanctus are supposed to sign that would state that KG could not use the copyrighted material for commercial or advertising purposes without legal penalties.
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Postby Caustic » Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:49 am

Ray+Wendy wrote:DJ Bone has guested several times out here and I have enjoyed his work, so I am not entirely unfamiliar with your scene.


You'll be a right bloody expert come Friday after the Provision show, then, since you'll get to hear me and step to, uh... well, Hell, I don't know what I'm bringing, but by crikey, it'll be new.

Oh, and make sure to hold on to that ring as you fall in the lava, Mr Gollum.


Huh?

Sir Diddimus wrote:Apparently nobody pays any attention, but the camera operators can sign over their copyrights all day. It still does not trump the rights of the individual. That is the Tennessee Law!


Actually, I think federal law kind of trumps state law. Also, looking it up, your cited aspect seems only to cover the fact that after death, following a ten year base period, the exclusive right of commercial use is negated if the owner of the copyright does nothing commercial for two years. What does that have to do with this?

Out of curiosity, has there been any actual evidence of harm, excluding hurt feelings, from people having their pictures taken at Sanctus?

Also, I notice only Vader has pictures posted. Did you sign your rights over to you, Bone, and Arkady as a collective? Did anyone else take photos?
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Postby Thor » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:04 am

DarkVader wrote:
mafiaman wrote:mafiaman wrote:


See, this is interesting to me because in order to have a valid copyright form like the one that has been suggested, EVERY PERSON WHO ATTENDS SANCTUS MUST DECLARE THAT KNOXGOTHIC HAS SOLE COPYRIGHT. This would include club staff as well in order to be valid. If anyone who attended did not sign, then it invalidates the legality of the attempt at copyright. See, since it is a public dance night, every person who attends would be considered to be the author of their own part of the dance night, contributing to the whole work (to be copyrighted) of Sanctus.

In short, everyone who is at Sanctus must submit a written legal declaration giving KnoxGothic the media rights to themselves in order to attend. It would place Sanctus in the same legal position over your individual media rights as Dick Clark's American Bandstand had over the people on the show.


Your statement is inaccurate. There is absolutely no legal basis for this statement.

First, the legal precent is that a photographer holds the copyright on a photograph. The subjects of the photograph do not receive copyright unless the photographer assigns it to them. We require that in order to receive a camera permit for a KG event, the photographer must sign his or her copyright over to KnoxGothic.com. We provide in exchange a camera permit for KG events, and a license to reproduce the photographs taken for personal use and free distribution. We also will provide at no charge a license to reproduce the photographs for commercial use, providing that certain requirements are met.

Second, Sanctus IS NOT a public event. It is a private event, on private property, and only open to people over 18 who pay a charge to enter. People who cause problems may be ejected. So, you may only enter with permission, and may be excluded at any time for any reason. This is of course true not only for Sanctus, but for any night at any nightclub in Knoxville (and most of the world).

In the case of KG events, people carrying cameras will be excluded from the event unless they are willing to sign the camera contract.

In our case, we have chosen this course because it gives us the best options for requiring that photographs that the individuals being photographed do not want published be removed. If a photograph from a KG event is published and we get a complaint from the person in the photograph, we will ask the publisher nicely to remove it. If they don't comply, we will send an official takedown notice, as we own the copyright. If someone decides to sell a photograph from a KG event without getting our permission (which we will give for free if everyone in the photograph agrees to it) we will send an official takedown notice.

It's being done not so KnoxGothic.com can profit from photographs, but so photographers have a harder time exploiting photographs from KG events without the permission of the people being photographed. KG isn't going to make any money from this.


Since Santus is a private event (and I'm looking into this )? Then it's members/patrons should be able to VOTE on ISSUES pertaining the event or events.

I say lets put the camera issue to a vote?
And like most private clubs lets vote on other important issues like a President for the private club? Maybe a vote for a entertainment committee? Maybe a vote for the security committee? Since Bone said he wanted to hear solutions, I think voting by members/patrons would be a reasonable solution?

As a final thought, and a easy solution , let Santus patrons be responsible for their own actions! ( HELLO ) Like a sign that says if you pay to get in then you/ the patron is responsible for YOUR actions, and any pictures taken of YOURSELF .... ( you get the picture).. Then it is between the photographer, and the subject. Not between Santus, and whom ever...
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Postby mafiaman » Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:28 am

Thor wrote:I say lets put the camera issue to a vote?


This is a good idea, but it looks like everybody has already voted. So far, the only ones who are in favor of the Copyright Theft Plan are KG and Ray+Wendy (do they count as 1 or 2 votes, I get confused), while everybody else thinks that this is a Bad Idea.

What I'm wondering is if this is just a measure to protect the patrons of Sanctus, then why is there so much stonewalling to the idea of adding verbage to the contract that says that KG cannot use the copyright for commercial or advertising purposes without appropriate compensation? I don't think that there are Nefarious Forces At Work Here (besides that bean burrito I just ate, of course), so what's the holdup?
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Postby Sir Diddimus » Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:13 pm

Just lock this thread all ready.....


Any further posts will be

***Ignored***
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Postby Ray+Wendy » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:16 pm

Sir Diddimus wrote:Just lock this thread all ready.....


Any further posts will be

***Ignored***

Agreed.
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Postby Caustic » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:33 am

Sir Diddimus wrote:Any further posts will be

***Ignored***


You're not going to answer why your Tennessee code doesn't seem applicable? What a tease.
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